09-13-2013, 05:01 PM | #31 |
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@Dylan Tomorrow: I didn't mean to suggest that these CSS3 features shouldn't be used in production ebooks. I do think that folks should be aware of the risks involved. To be (perhaps overly) pedantic, KF8 doesn't support any of these features. The webkit rendering engine used by the various devices supports these features. This matters to folks who produce commercial ebooks to be sold via Amazon. Just look at the current mess with the Kindle app on the iPad to see why.
My position is that the official format specs (EPUB 2 & 3 and KF8) are utterly useless because none of the leading devices and apps implement them in any sort of coherent fashion. Every so-called EPUB 2 device or app fails to properly implement CSS because they all break the cascade (for what are likely completely valid commercial reasons). Likewise, all of Amazon's KF8-compatible devices and apps have rendering engines that are far more capable that the spec would suggest. You are much better off knowing how the Adobe and webkit engines render HTML and CSS than paying attention to the specs. |
09-13-2013, 06:37 PM | #32 | |
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I have to say, I don't think that adding any selectors is going to solve the problem, as technically, K7 is not making use of CSS. So, if I understand you correctly, the selectors had zero impact on the paragraphs, right? Thus, to make the paragraphs work, across all the Amazon devices (and, BTW, the last time I looked, this was true for Nook, too; pseudo-elements/classes did not work in Nook/ADE), you'd need a styled paragraph class for a fallback, in which case....why use the pseudo-elements in the first place? If the paragraph must have a styled class in order to work, for all devices, then the use of the pseudo-classes/elements is just make-work, to my mind. I'm not denigrating what you've done, but as a commercial bookmaker, who can't make books for one device, or just to suit myself, I have to be sure that the book conforms across all, or nearly all, devices. (Obviously, many of the app-based readers just...do their own thing.) My question is, then: if you have to do A (A being, use a named class for an un-ented paragraph, in order for it to work), why do B as well? I could see it if we were future-proofing (like using Alt tags for a someday in which pop-ups exist), but...?? Hitch |
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09-13-2013, 11:58 PM | #33 | |||
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They are simply being ignored. I.e. users of older devices might miss out on some features, but since they're most likely not aware that they exist in the first place, their reading experience won't be negatively affected.
For example, all that Dylan Tomorrow's CSS code does is ensure that some elements don't get indented. I.e. without fallback code the KF7 version would have some extra indents that most readers won't even notice unless they're typography buffs. In that respect, I fully agree with the following comment by 52novels: Quote:
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The current version (2013.3) says: Quote:
In the absence of updated guidelines, Kindle designers have to treat Kindle source code like source code for any other programming language and interpret the absence of KindleGen warnings and error messages as an implicit acceptance of the validity of the source files. For example, the latest version of KindleGen still displays an error message for :counter-reset and :counter-increment but not for the other pseudo elements. IMHO, Amazon could have easily added error messages for the other pseudo elements if they didn't want them to be used in Kindle books. |
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09-14-2013, 03:26 AM | #34 |
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It is then a matter of the converter supporting the selectors/pseudo-classes/pseudo-elements. Calibre, for instance, performs some CSS "flattening", that removes all complex rules by introducing new classes where needed, this flattened document could then be used as a source for kindlegen or whatever... maybe.
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09-16-2013, 08:45 PM | #35 | |
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The short of it is, you can either produce books to satisfy the readers--by using something like the dreaded SPAN to create pseudo-element effects like :first-line, which will work in EVERY reader, or we can satisfy our inner geek by putting pseudo-elements in the code--which only WE will see--and let those people who didn't buy the fancier, more up-to-date devices do without. In the case of indented versus unindented paragraphs, those do, in English, at least, matter. They certainly matter for scene-breaks, and would have a definite impact on the reader's comprehension of the author's intent. Thus, having a paragraph indent--or not--on all devices actually matters. Not just for those people who can buy a K8 device, but for the millions (millions!) who didn't. And, Doitsu? I would not, in any sense, rely on the idea that just because you don't get an error message, everything is hunky-dory. Amazon has this cracked idea that the people who use the commercial, more-advanced creation tools, like KG and KP, will actually read the manual, and see text that tells them that X isn't supported, and that therefore, they don't need to create an error message for every possible use of CSS that might be thought up in the depths of our little brains. Unlike the KDP, which is designed for Dummies, their assumption is that we can read the instructions, and not do stupid stuff. </mini-rant> Hitch |
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09-17-2013, 03:36 AM | #36 | ||
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It's these cases that Dylan Tomorrow's use of the :not selector primarily addressed and which otherwise would have to be handled by manual style overrides. And, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the :not pseudo selector is not on the black list of prohibited pseudo selectors in the Kindle Publishing Guidelines. Quote:
You're of course right in that the absence of an error message doesn't necessarily mean that a feature is supported, because a sloppy or overworked software developer might have missed implementing an error check for it. |
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09-17-2013, 03:44 PM | #37 | ||
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And, as I've mentioned here previously, the "preview mobi" that can be downloaded from Step 5 is NOT actually representative of the final product. The SRL can be changed, and FONTS can be changed, or stripped entirely--many a slip, cup and lip, and all that. I'd be very hesitant indeed to use selectors expressly stated to be not supported without uploading a book, putting it on sale, downloading it and putting it on every single device possible, because the rather unexpected results lately from the KDP uploads are...unexpected. And not even for the use of unsupported elements. FWIW. We all know what opinions are. That was mine. Hitch |
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09-20-2013, 02:02 AM | #38 | |
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RMSDK's lack of support for these features is precisely equivalent to all of the features that Kindle didn't support until KF8. We still managed to make books that satisfied millions of Kindle readers, most (if not all) of whom never knew their epub-reading compadres were seeing drop caps instead of initial caps, fonts not named Caecelia, floating images, and proper blockquotes with margin on the left and right. Last edited by 52novels; 09-20-2013 at 02:22 AM. |
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09-20-2013, 04:02 AM | #39 | ||
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Rob, maybe I'm just being dense--my crew would certainly second that notion--but to me, it's no more efficient to use a selector class than a paragraph class, and in using the latter, you can use media-queries to do both K7 and K8. I don't disagree with you that many Kindle readers (of the human kind) never knew that their ePUB compatriots saw slightly different books, but I know that both our companies always tried within the available limits to conform the books as best possible, e.g., the ubiquitous Raised Initial in lieu of a DropCap back in the mobi K6/7 days. Sure, we have to throw in a span class, but most of us have regex to pretty much auto-span almost anything, if needed, particularly in those first paras, etc. It's just everyday choices we all make in this racket. {shrug}. I don't mind doing the extra bit, or having my folks do the extra bit, to conform the K7 copies to the K8 versions as much as possible. Amazon sold millions of those, and the people who have them don't seem to be in a hurry to give them up. I understand and respect your point; my view is just slightly different. We keep seeing a lot of suggested coding in this forum, and some of the others, that completely ignores the existence of K7 at all, and proposes CSS that would never work, even remotely, for the K7 devices. I suppose it's all well and good for folks like the type that hang out here or do this professionally, to discuss these more elegant solutions, because we already know that the suggested coding/solution won't work for K7, and thus have some type of backup plan. Hitch |
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09-20-2013, 02:34 PM | #40 | |
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And you and I both know there are some publishers you can develop this way and tell them "the device doesn't support the feature yet" and they'll be fine with that, and there are others who're gonna want you to do the full monty. Pick your battles. As for denying the existence of K7, we're basically talking about 1st/2nd gen Kindles and DX at this point... none of which Amazon supports. I suppose there are lots of people still running Windows XP and people who refuse to give up their Power Mac G5s, too. Meanwhile, software development moves on. There's gotta be some point at which we determine we'll move on, as well. Perhaps a good place to start is when the device-makers go first. Don't get me wrong... I think we have an obligation to ensure what we do degrades well and doesn't break the reading experience for people using devices that don't support something. I just don't think the obligation to ensure a wholly consistent experience no matter what is as compelling when device-makers, for whatever reason, choose not support something. |
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09-20-2013, 07:46 PM | #41 | |
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Generally, and in principal, I concur with you. I just seem to have a high percentage of clients who don't even know how to download from a browser, much less embrace "graceful degradation," AND they are definitely full-monty-ers. Either that, or I erred and spoiled them. Ah, well. (Don't get me started about the multi-times-per-week explanations about how ADE does not, when open to full-monitor size, and smallest font, really emulate an e-reader with 3-6 "pages," either.) (I can't believe I haven't yet been thrown off of MR for not ever playing a video game. I was sure I was going to catch total s**t for that!) Hitch |
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09-20-2013, 11:55 PM | #42 |
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Hitch, I think we are a fairly tolerant group, and your video game habits (or lack thereof) surely are of no concern to the vast(!) majority of ebook formatters who frequent this forum. I have learned a lot from your posts, and I hope the moderators will allow some leeway in your off-forum activities.
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09-21-2013, 05:49 AM | #43 | |
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