More Software! Idea Spinner vs Scapple

[BookCat]

I have Scapple, made by the same peeps who make Scrivener (which I also have). Just in case you don't kow what it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W2RB7mHQ3U

This is useful for top-level plotting and does this very quickly.

However, I came across something called Idea Spinner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vw1hoWAqbI&t=18s

There's no trial version of Idea Spinner, though it's only $19.99 (about £15).

BUT

Do I really need it?
Could I do the same things in Scapple?
(BTW I'm muskndusk on youtube and make some disparaging comments beneath the Idea Spinner vid )

I'm a bit of a writing-software-aholic

And I'm procrastinating when I should be nano planning!

What do you think?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BookCat

I have Scapple, made by the same peeps who make Scrivener (which I also have). Just in case you don't kow what it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W2RB7mHQ3U

This is useful for top-level plotting and does this very quickly.

However, I came across something called Idea Spinner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vw1hoWAqbI&t=18s

There's no trial version of Idea Spinner, though it's only $19.99 (about £15).

BUT

Do I really need it?
Could I do the same things in Scapple?
(BTW I'm muskndusk on youtube and make some disparaging comments beneath the Idea Spinner vid )

I'm a bit of a writing-software-aholic

And I'm procrastinating when I should be nano planning!

What do you think?

Well...if you're like me, you have them all (although, I haven't yet acquired Dramatica. ETA: Interestingly, I've never seen anyone on MR--or anyplace--say that they used it, either.) But honestly, Scapple looks like mind-mapping software to me, and given that most of the best of mm software is free, well....

I don't know what IdeaSpinner does, other than force you to think about the usual questions,to round out your story. I think you said that you have Snowflake Pro, so you might find some of this redundant.

OTOH, if you are not using something like Storyblocks or one of the big outlining/plotting tools (I don't consider Scrivener to be this), then this may well be a great addition. Moreover, they seem to have a no-questions-asked money-back guarantee, so...why not?

Hitch

[BookCat]

Thanks for the reply. I don't have Snowflake Pro, but I do have The Novel Factory which incorporates the Snowflake method. Scapple is a lot simpler than the usual mind mapping software in that it is totally free form; you just double click on the screen and type a note anywhere then if you want to join it to another you 'sit' one on top of the other and a dotted line appears between them. Mind maps tend to have a structured way of joining together: parent and child nodes etc, which Scapple frees you from.

Last night, while browsing the web for a free downloadable prompt program (I have Mikkomatrix but feel the need for something more), I came across The Storymatic Classic and just HAD TO have it!! If you've never heard of it, here's the Amazon link:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'll never be short of ideas again, not that I am, but there are times when my fingers twitch to get writing but I just can't think of anything decent to write.

And there's always the hope that somehow these tools will magically make me a better writer.

[gmw]

I don't tend to search with the intention of buying these days. I know what I want, and when I have the time I'll write it. I have most of the pieces needed already; time is the only missing factor. But I do still look at what's out there, so thanks for the links, when I get a chance I will take a peek.

But I remain on the lookout for other aids to my writing. I recently built a new system and this time around actually purchased two new screens. I do a lot of my work at night, so when I saw they said: "Low Blue Light", and "easy to access screen controls" that was what I wanted (okay, and lots of other good things too). The first claim is sort of true, the second is an outright lie. The Low Blue Light option, when adjusted to also use lower brightness (about 10% vs the 20% I use in standard mode), isn't bad, but switching it in every night and out every morning is a right PITA x 2 (a pain for each cheek). All of which leads me to this little gem that I've only just discovered, but apparently it's been around for a while:

ClickMonitorDDC. It's a bit geeky to set up (no install, just unzip it, and the instructions are a bit haphazard), but it's a wonderfully convenient and flexible little tool for adjusting your monitor's brightness (and also allows some limited colour temperature control). Windows only, sorry Mac users (though I'd be surprised if this capability didn't come built-in with your Mac). For this program to work your monitors have to support DDC/CI protocol, but lots (most?) do these days.

It's likely you've heard f.lux, or Windows these days offers "Night Light". These are programs/features that turn your screen orange - just like Kobo (and probably other) readers do on theory that too much blue light is bad for you sleep patterns. I've tried both f.lux and "Night Light" and can't stand either of them, they make my eyes hurt unless I turn them faint enough to be useless.

What makes ClickMonitorDDC different is that it changes your monitor's settings! There is a big difference between reducing brightness and temperature in software, and actually doing it on the monitor - especially on modern LCDs. The image on the screen will retain much greater fidelity if you change the light behind the LCD rather than fiddle with system colours. After using ClickMonitorDDC you can actually bring up your monitor's settings and see that they've been changed. ... And, if you really want, there's nothing stopping you using Night Light or f.lux in combination with this, so you can still have your orange screen but also get proper control of the brightness.

Oh, and it's free.

Disclaimer: I have nothing at all to do with the creator of this software. I'm just seriously impressed to find something that finally does what I need in terms of screen brightness control for Windows. ... Let me just use the mousewheel here to nudge the brightness down a bit. See? So much better!


ETA: There you go BookCat, just the help you were looking for - more software!

[crich70]

I picked up an earlier version of Storyweaver (not sure where it is right now with some stuff still packed up) and I have Snowflake Pro. I bought it when it first came out and got it at the introductory price. I found it doesn't work with Win 10 though I think it does with Win 7 (if I recall correctly). Somewhere I have Liquid Story Binder and ywriter. And I have Scrivener and Scrapple.

[BookCat]

I have StoryWeaver on my laptop. It's okay for the initial inspiration but at a certain point it gets very silly, asking that the details (age, gender, occupation etc) of your characters are swapped around. While this provokes creative thought, these characters couldn't seriously be used as is. But I think the software is meant to make you think "outside the box".

I wish there was a trial version of Snowflake Pro because I have Randy's Dummies book, meaning that I could buy the software at half price, but I don't want to invest in something I haven't tried. There aren't even any decent youtube videos regarding it.

I never got on with YWriter, it's too boxy and anal for me. I hate having to fill in details in so many boxes, then do it all again in other boxes. Never tried LSB.

Scrivener is a workhorse, like Word, and I get along fine with it. I didn't experience the heavy learning curve others speak of. To me the tree-structure of the binder was a familiar concept.

I'd love to hear your opinion of Scapple.

I'm gearing up for this year's nano; I'll probably use a combination of Scrivener, FocusWriter and The Novel Factory to finish the first draft of a novel I began some time ago.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by BookCat

[...]I'm gearing up for this year's nano; I'll probably use a combination of Scrivener, FocusWriter and The Novel Factory to finish the first draft of a novel I began some time ago.

This is what I don't get: How/why use a combination of tools like this?

For distraction free writing in LibreOffice I press the F11 key (full-screen mode). The background colours can all be changed, even the "white" of the paper (which I change to a pale grey as an addition to reducing screen brightness). For character profiles you have tools in Scrivener; I just use one or more documents in LibreOffice.

Of course we all work differently. I just don't get how you can use tools that are so similar to work on the same project - it seems like you'd constantly be copying stuff back and forth between them.

I can certainly understand Scapple as an addition, it's a different sort of tool to Scrivener, Focuswriter et al. And idea generators ... sure, if they work for you (my software development mind tends to get distracted by them, wondering how/why they make certain choices etc.). But how do you use multiple tools that all - to me - seem to be doing much the same job to work on the same project?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BookCat

I never got on with YWriter, it's too boxy and anal for me. I hate having to fill in details in so many boxes, then do it all again in other boxes. Never tried LSB.

You already have your way of writing, your process, so this post isn't really for you, but for anyone else that comes along--I think you misunderstood YWriter. You don't, ever, enter stuff twice. You really only enter it once--that's kind of the beauty of it. The trick, if there is one, is to play with it and see how it works. There's simplicity and beauty, really, to Ywriter, and most importantly, some pretty awesome functionality.

For example--the leftmost pane's default view is the Chapter list. On the right--the scenes in that Chapter. That shows the Viewpoint, words per scene, the Scene Title, Status (Outline, Draft, 1st Edit, 2nd edit, Done), whether it's an action or reaction scene, the filename (where the RTF is located), letters (characters rather than words--I admit, tht's more anal than even I wish to be), Character list for the scene, Location(s) list, items (props, cars, etc.), the date/time the scene takes place, and the file date.

In the pane below the Chapter list, we see the Chapter Title, and the Chapter description. Immediately below that, you get a total word count, and an added today number, if any.

In the pane below the Scenes list, you have the current scene upon which you are working. The tabs allow you to see the Content; the description for the scene; the Characters, Locations, Items, Scene Notes, and the scene's Goal, Conflict and Outcome.

That's the main working interface. Like Scrivener, you can drag-drop Chapters and/or Scenes around to your heart's content.

There really is nothing--nothing--repetitive in YWriter. Granted--it's not "pretty" like Scrivener (or LSBXE, or, or, or), but it's more functional, at the heart, than Scrivener. Yes, it is, before I hear all the screaming from the diehards. For a simple example--remember that "location" tab, above? And the date/time tab? As you write your scenes, you fill in that info--this scene takes place at the bar, this scene takes place on the freeway, etc.--and YWriter constructs a timeline, for each character, where they are and when. It's absolutely invaluable if you have multiple plotlines or throughlines, and you need to track whether or not you have Character A where she is supposed to be, or whether you've written him in two different places at the same time. I can guarantee you that Scrivener (nor any other program I've found) doesn't do that. Oh, sure, YOU can laboriously and painstakingly construct a timeline...but why, when YW will do it for you?

I think that YW's only "sin" is, as I said--it's just NOT pretty.

I said this someplace before--I think it was here--but LSB XE had a lot of people adopt it, for a while, and they all raved, yadda, and the only thing it really DID was look pretty. It allowed you to change your "desktop" into all these pretty backgrounds, it had a place for you to load music, to "help you write," and images to help you conceptualize, and one or two handy things, but at the end of the day, I think its primary feature was, it made people FEEL like they were "real writers." I don't think it really did a damn thing, over than take up a ginormous amount of space. And, like most, it output RTFs. It did have a few cool-ish functions; but again, every one of those functions is in YWriter.

Now, I'm the first to admit, I have EVERY writing program, pretty much. I dunno, I have tried pretty much everything from Storyblocks to PowerStructure (which I rather like, BTW) to Scrivener, but I always find myself, when the writing really starts, falling back to YWriter.

BTW, BookCat--if you liked Randy's Goldilocks book and the Dummies book, you'd actually like YWriter, which uses the same Action/reaction, Goal, Conflict, Outcome scene (or Reaction, Dilemma, Choice, for Reaction scenes) structure--or, rather, makes provision to allow you to use it. You can mark a scene plot or subplot. You can add characters to a scene with a click.

I think it's a widely misunderstood and MADLY underappreciated piece of software, and everybody I know who says that they didn't like it or wahtever is almost ALWAYS a Scrivener user. I know that Simon will never "prettify" it, because that would likely screw with how incredibly useful and full-featured it is, but I genuinely don't know another program that does everything that YWriter lets you do--and makes it EASY for you to do.

Offered solely FWIW.

Hitch

[BookCat]

Originally Posted by gmw

This is what I don't get: How/why use a combination of tools like this?

For distraction free writing in LibreOffice I press the F11 key (full-screen mode). The background colours can all be changed, even the "white" of the paper (which I change to a pale grey as an addition to reducing screen brightness). For character profiles you have tools in Scrivener; I just use one or more documents in LibreOffice.

Of course we all work differently. I just don't get how you can use tools that are so similar to work on the same project - it seems like you'd constantly be copying stuff back and forth between them.

I can certainly understand Scapple as an addition, it's a different sort of tool to Scrivener, Focuswriter et al. And idea generators ... sure, if they work for you (my software development mind tends to get distracted by them, wondering how/why they make certain choices etc.). But how do you use multiple tools that all - to me - seem to be doing much the same job to work on the same project?

These tools excel in different areas of the writing process. The Novel Factory helps with plotting and structuring the entire novel, or even just part of it, making the process painless.

Scrivener is a great place for keeping all the information and chapters of the novel, and for working on character and location details. It's the central hub of the work.

FocusWriter is where I actually write. I love its customisable distraction-free space, where the background picture can be changed to suit the scene I'm writing and there are nice typewriter sounds. Yes, Scrivener has a similar full screen area, but it lacks the typewriter sounds and ability to alter the opaqueness of the text area (you can show a faded version of the outside area, but not alter the text area to allow a glimpse of the background picture). I'm refering to the Windows version of Scrivener.

Using multiple software doesn't bother me, I don't find it cumbersome in any way. I often also use Papel when first putting ideas together. This can delve deeper than Scapple and is a great way of having an overview of initial thoughts in order to tie them together into the first inklings of a plot. I've customised the icons in this software to make it more fun to work in.

Hitch: Thanks, that's a great tutorial of YWriter. I'll copy and paste it into notepad and perhaps try the software again after nano. I'm sure many others will find it helpful.

I confess to being a visual person: the looks of the software do affect me. Perhaps if YWriter were prettier I would feel more inclined to learn it properly.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BookCat

These tools excel in different areas of the writing process. The Novel Factory helps with plotting and structuring the entire novel, or even just part of it, making the process painless.

I recently bought both that and Dramatica Pro. My understanding is that either/both help wth plotting throughout, and that is simply my biggest weakness. I know that a crapload of writers start with a thing--an idea, a character, a theme--I tend to think of "this person was murdered, this is the villain, that's the reveal." My problem is, creating all the cruft that goes from a-b-c. Allegedly, according to various courses, writing/critique groups, and all that, I can do the rest--create characters that folks like, write dialogue, scenes..but figuring out how the hell Jane Doe goes from being X to being the detective? God no. OR, worse, the "business," as in, filling in all the cruft between the high points. (Of course, to be fair, I haven't really sat down and tried to write in 5 years. The existing business--my real job--takes a little over 60 hours a week to run, and I'm also taking a 6-mo. long course right now, 4x weekly, in something else...so, I tend to run out of time, fairly often, lol. There are days when literally, I don't eat.)

Scrivener is a great place for keeping all the information and chapters of the novel, and for working on character and location details. It's the central hub of the work.

Gad, I wish I loved it as you guys do! ;-)

FocusWriter is where I actually write. I love its customisable distraction-free space, where the background picture can be changed to suit the scene I'm writing and there are nice typewriter sounds. Yes, Scrivener has a similar full screen area, but it lacks the typewriter sounds and ability to alter the opaqueness of the text area (you can show a faded version of the outside area, but not alter the text area to allow a glimpse of the background picture). I'm refering to the Windows version of Scrivener.

Meh, for short stuff, for me, this is Word. Longer stuff, YWriter, all-in. It's simply freaking fabulous--even if it ain't purty!

<snippage from Bookcat>

Hitch: Thanks, that's a great tutorial of YWriter. I'll copy and paste it into notepad and perhaps try the software again after nano. I'm sure many others will find it helpful.

I confess to being a visual person: the looks of the software do affect me. Perhaps if YWriter were prettier I would feel more inclined to learn it properly.

People ARE visual. God, if I've learned ONE BLOODY THING in my several decades on the GUI web now, it's that. Who'da thunk that book cover design would become nearly the end-all and be-all of book marketing, even a decade ago? Important, yes--but nearly ALL-important? I mean...I can name a million other things, but humans are sighthounds on two legs. (If you don't believe me, folks, stand in the frozen food aisle and watch people that are NOT buying from a pre-set list. YOu know what people buy? Inevitably, the box of X that has the best picture on the box. PERIOD. Screw calories, protein, carbs...it's the PICTURE, BAYBEEEEE!)

So, in part--and forgive me for this--that DEFNITELY accounts for the popularity of Scrivener. It's pretty, and it started in the Appleverse, where pretty stuff is always, ALWAYS, more popular than that which is functional. It's moved over to Windows, where it's also attractive. It has stuff that's attractive (like the corkboard thing, which...I don't get.) I'm not immune to the attractions of pretty, but...apparently, when push comes to shove, I'm all-in for functionality over pretty. I'm definitely a left-brainer, no two ways about that. (Probably why I struggle with the creativity part of plotting--while the logical part seems easy to me.)

Nothing wrong with being visual---welcome to the human race. But in some ways, that's really YWriter's downfall, or its handicap; that Simon just can't be bothered to make it pretty. (Another left-brainer!). I think that if he foofed it up a bit--and hell, probably if he made it COST money--it would sell a lot more. It's just bloody cool, when you really SEE it.

Ya know?

Oh, and it wasn't a tutorial, at all, I'm sad to say...more like a guided tour. ;-)

Hitch

[BookCat]

I've just been playing with the Storymatic I mentioned in post #3 and feel like my brain has had a creative workout! It's also given me the beginning of a thriller plot (which I've quickly sketched out in Scapple). I could have gone on and had a complete plot, but was mentally exhausted! My brain feels like it's done an hour of aerobics.
I very much recommend this product, though it isn't cheap. I bought the Classic. I have no affiliation.

Hitch: The Novel Factory is what you need. I hope you like it as much as I do. As for getting from A to B, don't bother with the moving between rooms and boring stuff, no one wants to read it, just go from exciting scene to exciting scene with an occasional restful one.
I know you're aware of the scene-sequel structure. TNF also includes Incident scenes which are neither one nor the other, but they recommend few of these.

Yep, YWriter needs to be prettier. With a decent trial period Simon could perhaps charge for a new, attractive version.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BookCat

Hitch: The Novel Factory is what you need. I hope you like it as much as I do. As for getting from A to B, don't bother with the moving between rooms and boring stuff, no one wants to read it, just go from exciting scene to exciting scene with an occasional restful one.
I know you're aware of the scene-sequel structure. TNF also includes Incident scenes which are neither one nor the other, but they recommend few of these.

Yep, YWriter needs to be prettier. With a decent trial period Simon could perhaps charge for a new, attractive version.

YWriter is free, BC. That's probably why he will never prettify it. I will admit, I find all the foofery to be an utter waste of time as well, so I completely understand why Simon won't invest his valuable time in making it foofy/pretty. It works, better than pretty much anything else, in ANY class, in terms of WHAT. IT. DOES. Honestly? Scrivener's capabilities simply don't hold a candle to it. I have yet to find a so-called "writing program" that does, TBH. Not even close.

It's a damned shame that people can't see it for what it is, just because it's not foofy.

FYI: I'm not talking, and would never write someone moving from room a to room b, unless there was a damned good reason for it. I meant what I think of as "the business," which is writing all the cruft that fills in the plot enough so that you don't have some Perils of Pauline potboiler.

Hitch

[skb]

It's just so interesting to get all these viewpoints. I love these kinds of discussions because they challenge the way I think about things. Which is always good.

I used yWriter when I was a windows user. I couldn't give a fig about foofy* either, though. To be honest, I don't see what's so ugly about it. It didn't really do it for me. I couldn't be bothered with all the bells & whistles (which I totally understand that others find mandatory) like word counts and whatnot.

When I moved to mac (long, boring story) I missed all the wonderful win apps that were around (but don't say that in a mac forum because...omg ouch!) and I still think that mac lags behind in range of apps. And I loathe the app store with a burning hate.
So, when I first mac'd, I used Word to write my first short story. By the end, I wanted to punch it in the face, if it had one (for the same reasons Simon lists). And I'm a Word lover. But, without alternatives, I carried on.

Somewhere along the line, I discovered Scrivener Gold (when it was free). It suited my workflow. I still only use a fraction of its functionality. I didn’t want characters, scenes, locations, items etc of yWriter (which to be honest, overwhelmed me with stuff). I just want to be able to move stuff around or even remove it without losing it. I've tried other programs (StoryMill and...others which I've forgotten), but Scrivener just suits me. I'm afraid I'm rusted on to Scrivener now.

And I think I'm the only person ever to think mind mapping programs the most annoying software in the universe (big call, I know). My old IT colleagues loved them and I used to spend "brain storming" sessions rolling my eyes. But again, that's just me.


* best word ever.

[gmw]

Ha! And to think that I always thought that the typewriter sounds thing was a gimmick. People actually use it. Wow!

I live and work in a very quiet environment. I even go to extremes when assembling my own computers to keep them quiet. And the speakers stay muted. During the summer I can, literally, hear it when a snake slithers past the birdbath outside my window. So no typewriter sounds for me. It's either quiet, or at night I (sometimes) don headphones and listen to music.

I write database software for a living, so duplicating data offends my senses on multiple levels: version control and data integrity. Which doesn't mean it never happens - because you're right, some tools are better at some tasks than others, and sometimes that makes the duplication worth it. I just draw the line in a different place.

I do have a better appreciation for wanting to control the appearance. A lot of what you speak of can be done in many applications, but some make it easier than others.


And that last paragraph is one of the factors about YWriter. It's not just that it's not foofy, it's that it's stuck. Everything is right there in your face all the time. And, from my perspective, it looks like a database form, so it looks like work, not writing.

I like the fact that YWriter has all those capabilities for tracking things about the story, but I don't want them all in my face all the time. I want to be able to adjust an interface to suit myself, because we all work differently. I like functional, but I don't find it functional to bombard the senses with a gazillion choices all the time, that overwhelms the senses right when I really don't want it. (This is one of the things that that immediately turns me away from LSB and the like.)

I am sure I could get used to YWriter if I spent long enough working with it, but then we come back to the fact that it writes RTF - no styles. That's a deal-breaker for me. It's why I don't use Scrivener. This comes back to wanting to change how things look. With styles I can do that easily, and that's what I want.

So, for now, I continue to work with collections of LibreOffice documents and folder structures.

[skb]

Originally Posted by gmw

I am sure I could get used to YWriter if I spent long enough working with it, but then we come back to the fact that it writes RTF - no styles. That's a deal-breaker for me. It's why I don't use Scrivener. This comes back to wanting to change how things look. With styles I can do that easily, and that's what I want.

So, for now, I continue to work with collections of LibreOffice documents and folder structures.

I'm pretty sure that Version 3 of Scrivener will be incorporating styles (but check the site before committing )