DHS Watchdog OKs ‘Suspicionless’ Seizure of Electronic Devices Along Border - Page 3

tubemonkey · 02-12-2013, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Size isn't everything

Don't you feel cramped in such a small territory?

Bilbo1967 · 02-12-2013, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

Don't you feel cramped in such a small territory?

Honestly, no.

There's nowhere near as many of us and therre's plenty of open spaces. I never really wanted a ranch, anyway

twobits · 02-12-2013, 01:01 PM

On the plus side, since the power to tax at present comes from the constitution maybe these are all now tax free trade areas. if they are constitution free.

On a bit more serious note, I should bump up on my tbr list Little Brother and Homeland as they seem even more timely all of the sudden.

Sil_liS · 02-12-2013, 01:37 PM

How exactly is this supposed to work? Do you have to give them the password for the device, the password(s) for your email account(s). Will it be illegal to have encrypted files?

And I get the fact that a laptop, tablet, smartphone, etc. are easy to see and seize but micro SD cards can hold many things. How will they search for those?

Ninjalawyer · 02-12-2013, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teh603

There's no easy middle ground, unfortunately. Either you have an impossibly weak government with no ability to protect its citizens, or you have room for massive abuse.

That is a false dichotomy.

NightGeometry · 02-12-2013, 02:04 PM

Doesn't your border with Canada go through the middle of the great lakes, so those lake side areas are (possibly) misrepresented.

This is different to sea, as the border is actually the coast, but territorial water is what extends (so you have dominion, but it isn't within the border). I think. I'm not a legal cartographer, nor do i play one on TV.

rkomar · 02-12-2013, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightGeometry

Doesn't your border with Canada go through the middle of the great lakes, so those lake side areas are (possibly) misrepresented.

This is different to sea, as the border is actually the coast, but territorial water is what extends (so you have dominion, but it isn't within the border). I think. I'm not a legal cartographer, nor do i play one on TV.

I don't get why such details are even being discussed. The 100 mile limit is totally arbitrary, and can be changed at any time. Being consoled by the fact that one is outside the limit seems delusional to me. If they're trampling on the rights of other Americans, yours are not safe either, no matter where you live. (I'm speaking to Americans here).

vxf · 02-12-2013, 04:30 PM

Just a bit of perspective: I am a foreigner (Italian) living in the USA. Thanks to the non-easy immigration process, I have been here for 15 years (with a brief break) and I still do not have residency - but a working visa. I have always been here legally and done everything by the book. I have a PhD and I teach at a major University.

So my case might be a bit peculiar. But I remember my PC/phone and other electronic equipment often being swiped and I have been asked many times to turn things on and to log in - I think to demonstrate that the devices are actually what they look like. I think this happens more often in Europe, actually. So I say... welcome to my world. But I don't understand what has changed, since they seemed to be able to do with my devices what they wanted even before. Unless I received different treatment because of nationality, which is plausible.

And yes, the 100 miles zone is very real and very arbitrary. I live in Buffalo, NY now and being pulled over for no reason is not frequent, but it happens, because of the proximity to the border. I have never been given a hard time (I don't always have my passport and visa with me). But I was pulled over in south Texas once, close to the Mexican border (in South Padre) and the officers gave me a very hard time because I did not have my passport with me (despite the fact that I was far from the border and had no intention of crossing). They finally figured out that my employment authorization card was a valid ID for their purposes and let me go, but with considerable delay. But, not familiar with the area, I was surprised that they had these random road blocks checking every car. Here in Buffalo I have not seen road blocks, but I see them pull over cars randomly for checks.

frahse · 02-12-2013, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apache

I live in South Georgia and I am in this zone.

And I live more than 100 miles from any coast.
Apache

I don't believe this to be true.

It is just some speculation from people trying to raise a storm of fear and anguish.

The ACLU is not the US Govt. and to my knowledge, the US Govt. has not made any such map.

Don't let these people frighten you.

If you want excitement, pay a visit to the Area 51 vicinity this summer. They need the tourists.

tubemonkey · 02-12-2013, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vxf

Here in Buffalo I have not seen road blocks, but I see them pull over cars randomly for checks.

How do you know they were pulled over for checks and not for a traffic violation?

frahse · 02-12-2013, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

We use the interior for farming and ranching

That is where the "wild things" go. You could normally find me there on the weekend, except that I am holed up in Canada on a job.

Maybe in a few months, I will be able to go out West in the good old USA.

I need to feel feel the sun and wind in Texas and OK. April should be good!

frahse · 02-12-2013, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

How do you know they were pulled over for checks and not for a traffic violation?

Likewise in NY, for guns or large magazines!

DianNC · 02-12-2013, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

How exactly is this supposed to work? Do you have to give them the password for the device, the password(s) for your email account(s). Will it be illegal to have encrypted files?

There's case law that covers this. If you look up the exceptions to the 4th Amendment you can check it out. As I recall, a man near the Canadian border had his laptop seized and, according to him, he was 'forced' to reveal his password.

Quote:

And I get the fact that a laptop, tablet, smartphone, etc. are easy to see and seize but micro SD cards can hold many things. How will they search for those?

I'm going to guess that our intelligence community has figured all this out. Guess it depends on their suspicions and what they're looking for, but I'm pretty sure they can keep whatever devices they seize for as long as they want.

vxf · 02-12-2013, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

How do you know they were pulled over for checks and not for a traffic violation?

Well, I know I got pulled over for checks and not traffic violations.

And you see what the cars that pull you over for checks look like.
And then you see the same car pull over someone else...

And you have friends, co-workers and students pulled over for checks...

Lutraa · 02-12-2013, 07:44 PM

Despite this thread's title, DHS's own Office of Civil Rights is not a "watchdog" in any conventional meaning of the term. Its relationship to the Dept. of Homeland Security is akin to the Inquisition's relationship to the Holy See. Thus its policy, which that it's OK for CBP to seize any electronic gadget being carried into the US by any traveller, citizen or not, and keep it for an indeterminate "reasonable" amount of time, should not be assumed to be the final word on the 4th Amendment.

For your reading pleasure, here is a guide for travelers entering the US who are interested in retaining electronic privacy: https://www.eff.org/sites/default/fi...r-search_2.pdf Note that the border guards cannot force you to divulge device passwords. A court could order you to provide the passwords, assuming you weren't successful in arguing your 5th Amendment self-incrimination right, but the penalty for refusing this order would be prison, not the rack (at least in theory, we haven't yet stooped to waterboarding civilian citizens).

[Note my alternating use of traveler/traveller -- I was educated in the US, Australia and Canada and spell as my mood suits me.]

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02-12-2013, 01:01 PM	#33
twobits Addict Posts: 223 Karma: 1057019 Join Date: Oct 2010 Device: none	On the plus side, since the power to tax at present comes from the constitution maybe these are all now tax free trade areas. if they are constitution free. On a bit more serious note, I should bump up on my tbr list Little Brother and Homeland as they seem even more timely all of the sudden.

02-12-2013, 01:37 PM	#34
Sil_liS Wizard Posts: 4,896 Karma: 33602910 Join Date: Oct 2010 Device: PocketBook 903 & 360+	How exactly is this supposed to work? Do you have to give them the password for the device, the password(s) for your email account(s). Will it be illegal to have encrypted files? And I get the fact that a laptop, tablet, smartphone, etc. are easy to see and seize but micro SD cards can hold many things. How will they search for those?

02-12-2013, 02:04 PM	#36
NightGeometry Zealot Posts: 139 Karma: 1057240 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Brighton, England Device: Sony PRS-T1, Kindle 3G, Kindle DX	Doesn't your border with Canada go through the middle of the great lakes, so those lake side areas are (possibly) misrepresented. This is different to sea, as the border is actually the coast, but territorial water is what extends (so you have dominion, but it isn't within the border). I think. I'm not a legal cartographer, nor do i play one on TV.

02-12-2013, 04:30 PM	#38
vxf Guru Posts: 944 Karma: 1490348 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Norman, OK Device: Sony PRS 350, 900, 950; Kindles (ALL of them!); Kobo Aura One	Just a bit of perspective: I am a foreigner (Italian) living in the USA. Thanks to the non-easy immigration process, I have been here for 15 years (with a brief break) and I still do not have residency - but a working visa. I have always been here legally and done everything by the book. I have a PhD and I teach at a major University. So my case might be a bit peculiar. But I remember my PC/phone and other electronic equipment often being swiped and I have been asked many times to turn things on and to log in - I think to demonstrate that the devices are actually what they look like. I think this happens more often in Europe, actually. So I say... welcome to my world. But I don't understand what has changed, since they seemed to be able to do with my devices what they wanted even before. Unless I received different treatment because of nationality, which is plausible. And yes, the 100 miles zone is very real and very arbitrary. I live in Buffalo, NY now and being pulled over for no reason is not frequent, but it happens, because of the proximity to the border. I have never been given a hard time (I don't always have my passport and visa with me). But I was pulled over in south Texas once, close to the Mexican border (in South Padre) and the officers gave me a very hard time because I did not have my passport with me (despite the fact that I was far from the border and had no intention of crossing). They finally figured out that my employment authorization card was a valid ID for their purposes and let me go, but with considerable delay. But, not familiar with the area, I was surprised that they had these random road blocks checking every car. Here in Buffalo I have not seen road blocks, but I see them pull over cars randomly for checks.

02-12-2013, 07:44 PM	#45
Lutraa Well Read Posts: 87 Karma: 2425880 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Far North Device: KK 3G, K4B, Nook HD+, Galaxy S3	Despite this thread's title, DHS's own Office of Civil Rights is not a "watchdog" in any conventional meaning of the term. Its relationship to the Dept. of Homeland Security is akin to the Inquisition's relationship to the Holy See. Thus its policy, which that it's OK for CBP to seize any electronic gadget being carried into the US by any traveller, citizen or not, and keep it for an indeterminate "reasonable" amount of time, should not be assumed to be the final word on the 4th Amendment. For your reading pleasure, here is a guide for travelers entering the US who are interested in retaining electronic privacy: https://www.eff.org/sites/default/fi...r-search_2.pdf Note that the border guards cannot force you to divulge device passwords. A court could order you to provide the passwords, assuming you weren't successful in arguing your 5th Amendment self-incrimination right, but the penalty for refusing this order would be prison, not the rack (at least in theory, we haven't yet stooped to waterboarding civilian citizens). [Note my alternating use of traveler/traveller -- I was educated in the US, Australia and Canada and spell as my mood suits me.]

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