Fun with Amazon: Defective PaperWhite - Page 4

haertig · 03-10-2018, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilovejedd

Nah, you can spoof the MAC address (iirc, not all that unique either although chances of collission are low).

They are unique to a specific piece of networking hardware.

Quote:

I remember having my wifi router spoof the MAC address of my PC so the cable modem would play nice with it.

That's different. You are spoofing the MAC address in software. The MAC address on the networking hardware inside a Kindle is unique, and not easily spoof-able.[/QUOTE]

ilovejedd · 03-10-2018, 11:46 PM

Given Amazon controls the firmware and the Kindle is pretty much just running a flavor of Linux, I really don't see what makes it so special that it can't be spoofed if Amazon wanted to do so. They likely wouldn't bother though. The lawsuit if discovered is much more costly.

Longer reading:

Spoiler:

https://www.howtogeek.com/228286/how...sses-enforced/

How are MAC Addresses Determined?

Vendors are given a range of MAC Addresses that can be assigned to their products by the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers). MAC Address are assigned to Vendors in various sized blocks as appropriate.

The IEEE offers Registration Authority programs or registries which maintain lists of unique identifiers under standards and issue unique identifiers to those wishing to register them. The IEEE Registration Authority assigns unambiguous names to objects in a way which makes the assignment available to interested parties.

Devices are Uniquely Identified by Their MAC Addresses

This is incorrect. Devices are not uniquely identified by their MAC addresses.

In the past vendors have intentionally or by mistake assigned the same MAC Address to multiple devices.
It is possible to change the MAC Address presented by most hardware to the OS, an action often referred to as MAC spoofing:
- MAC spoofing is a technique for changing a factory-assigned Media Access Control (MAC) Address of a network interface on a networked device. The MAC Address is hard-coded on a network interface controller (NIC) and cannot be changed. However, there are tools which can make an operating system believe that the NIC has the MAC Address of a user’s choosing.

See Also: Are MAC Addresses Unique When Coming Out of the Factory? and MAC Address Recycling?

Duplicate MAC Addresses

Manufacturers re-use MAC Addresses and they ship cards with duplicate addresses to different parts of the United States or the world so that there is only a very small chance two computers with network cards with the same MAC Address will end up on the same network.
MAC Addresses are ‘burned’ into the Network Interface Card (NIC) and cannot be changed. See ARP and RARP on how IP addresses are translated into MAC Addresses and vice versa.
In order for a network device to be able to communicate, the MAC Address it is using must be unique. No other device on that local network subnet can use that MAC Address. If two devices have the same MAC Address (which occurs more often than network administrators would like), neither computer can communicate properly. On an Ethernet LAN, this will cause a high number of collisions. Duplicate MAC Addresses on the same LAN are a problem. Duplicate MAC Addresses separated by one or more routers is not a problem since the two devices won’t see each other and will use the router to communicate.

Barbara1955 · 03-11-2018, 04:48 AM

My case was such a mess they Refund my Original Purchase price. They Not sent me a Label to send the Refrib back... haven't said what to do with it. IF I haven't heard in 10 days I going to use it to buy another PW3 thru the trade-in. Part of my payment was getting Gift card balance of $35 IF I am correct that will cover Any Balance I may owe.... Basicly I still get a New PW3 for Free!

HLS · 03-13-2018, 09:52 PM

If a credit is processed on a canceled card it should post on the new card. I only know rthis for i worked for credit card companies.

For me I was charged for music unlimited and Amazon refuses to refund me even tho it was promised. Instead I was to get a $25 credit I never received,

Barbara1955 · 03-13-2018, 11:30 PM

Re-contact Amazon and Ask where the refund went. My Gift card balance is already posted on Amazon. I just not sure where the rest went. Today I got my Credit Card statement nothing posted on it for March at all.... I have to wait another month to see if its posted on next billing cycle ugh

BookCat · 03-14-2018, 12:29 PM

I still think that Amazon Chat uses the term 'new' to mean 'new to you,' not newly manufactured.

In the UK we have a Small Claims Court which was set up for claiming small amounts at very little cost. You don't need legal representation, just a good argument, documentation etc.

ilovejedd · 03-14-2018, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BookCat

I still think that Amazon Chat uses the term 'new' to mean 'new to you,' not newly manufactured.

In the UK we have a Small Claims Court which was set up for claiming small amounts at very little cost. You don't need legal representation, just a good argument, documentation etc.

We have small claims in the US, too. For the $100-120 price of the Paperwhite, I reckon it's not worth the hassle and missing a day of work.

haertig · 03-14-2018, 03:47 PM

See my quotes from the chat in post #15 of this thread:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=15

The Amazon rep was presented with an either/or choice: "Do I get a NEW one or a REFURB one?" (paraphrased).

When presented with an either/or choice, and you respond affirmatively with one of the two choices, you can't come back later and say "they actually mean the same thing".

It's refurb or new, one or the other, it can't be both. What little wiggle room a word weasel might have had saying "they're both the same thing" totally evaporated when they responded specifically to an either/or choice with one of the presented choices. If they wanted to weasel out of an either/or choice, they would have had to mention that "refurb is the same as new" in their response. They didn't do that. This is not a gray area. This is common English language usage.

Playing with words is one thing, but you can only play so far without it being a lie/fraud/misrepresentation/falsehood/etc.

Anyway, when I receive my replacement Kindle, I guess we'll find out if my Amazon weasel lacks a grasp of the English language like Barbara's Amazon weasel did.

Next, I hope we won't be discussing that when Amazon said "New Kindle", that was just an accidental spelling error, and they meant to say "Gnu Kindle" - as in, "a Kindle previously owned by a wildebeest".

ilovejedd · 03-14-2018, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haertig

See my quotes from the chat in post #15 of this thread:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=15

The Amazon rep was presented with an either/or choice: "Do I get a NEW one or a REFURB one?" (paraphrased).

When presented with an either/or choice, and you respond affirmatively with one of the two choices, you can't come back later and say "they actually mean the same thing".

It's refurb or new, one or the other, it can't be both. What little wiggle room a word weasel might have had saying "they're both the same thing" totally evaporated when they responded specifically to an either/or choice with one of the presented choices. If they wanted to weasel out of an either/or choice, they would have had to mention that "refurb is the same as new" in their response. They didn't do that. This is not a gray area. This is common English language usage.

Playing with words is one thing, but you can only play so far without it being a lie/fraud/misrepresentation/falsehood/etc.

Anyway, when I receive my replacement Kindle, I guess we'll find out if my Amazon weasel lacks a grasp of the English language like Barbara's Amazon weasel did.

Next, I hope we won't be discussing that when Amazon said "New Kindle", that was just an accidental spelling error, and they meant to say "Gnu Kindle" - as in, "a Kindle previously owned by a wildebeest".

Your question was absolute. Amazon's reply was not. You'll note that the Amazon rep didn't affirmatively state that you will not get a refurb. Just that they'd leave a note to their tech guys. Unfortunately, the "newer than yours" addendum is open to interpretation.

haertig · 03-14-2018, 05:42 PM

You are free to accept a refurb after being promised a new device if you end up in this situation. That's your decision.

And I am free to argue the point with them that when they say "new device", that actually means "new device", not a refurb. That's my decision.

They may very well return my original device repaired (which would be fine) or a new device to replace it. If either of those happens, I'm fine with that and this discussion is moot. But if I am sent a refurb, it is me and me alone who decides what I will do next. Personally, I will complain about it. Had I not verified with the Amazon rep that a new device would be sent, I would not complain, because their policy states that you might get a refurb.

But in my case I did verify with the rep that I'd get a new one. As I mentioned in an earlier post, their policy says they get to decide whether to replace with a new or a refurb. My specific rep, in my specific chat, chose "new" after I specifically asked about that. And I sent my old device back based on that understanding. I won't sit back and sheepishly accept that "new" means "refurb" without challenge. As I said before, if "new" means "new to you", then pretty much everything on this planet is "new". There would be no such thing as a "refurb" or a "used device". That would be redundant, because they are all new.

To each his own. I wouldn't hold anything against you or anyone else if you accepted a refurb after being told you would get a new one. That's your choice.

HarryT · 03-14-2018, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haertig

You are free to accept a refurb after being promised a new device if you end up in this situation. That's your decision.

And I am free to argue the point with them that when they say "new device", that actually means "new device", not a refurb. That's my decision.

IIRC, what they actually said is that you’d get “either a new device or a newer one than yours”, didn’t they? As I said when you first raised the issue, that final clause reads “refurb” to me.

haertig · 03-14-2018, 07:52 PM

I just got an email that said they were able to repair my device, and are returning it after it passed all their tests. No specifics on what they did to repair it. They did mention that they reloaded the newest firmware, that it was re-registered to my account, but I'd have to re-configure any other specifics I had before (parental controls, etc.)

I hope this doesn't mean that the repair was simply a reloading of the firmware with nothing else being done. Previous firmware updates have not fixed the problem before. The problem is random lockups that didn't appear to be reproducible with direct user interaction, they just randomly happened.

I still believe the problem is the battery. Maybe they replaced that, who knows? They didn't say. But we shall see if the lockups return...

Barbara1955 · 03-15-2018, 08:45 PM

That's what they were going to do with mine Repair AND if its determined Not under warranty My Cost! That when I Tried to contact some one to Stop the Repair Order & then Everything fell apart!

I also thought they miss understood what Device was to be Fixed & Which was to be Replaced with New! After we got thru chat about the PW3 Being Exchanged for a New PW3. I asked about my Fires ... neither were being seen by my PC BOTH were under Warranty... the 10 they were going to Replace with New one BUT my 7" they said would need Repaired cause they could Not find a 2012 32 gig... That when I figured they confused the orders.

haertig Maybe Repair is the New Replace ugh

haertig · 03-15-2018, 11:30 PM

Repair is fine with me. If indeed they actually repaired anything. Since they didn't give any specifics, I'm being pessimistic and thinking that they probably just reloaded the firmware and called it good. Ugh. That didn't work when I did it, and it probably won't work if that's all they did either. Who knows? Maybe they have lower level access to the device and can read software error logs to figure out what needs to be done for a repair. Just because we as consumers don't have access to logs like that doesn't mean that the Amazon techs don't.

But we'll see what the result is. I'll keep an open mind, (until it locks up again). Supposedly it will arrive here tomorrow.

haertig · 03-17-2018, 12:55 AM

I did indeed end up getting my original Kindle back. Not a refurb, not a new one. So I'm happy about that.

We'll see if it locks up any more.

03-10-2018, 11:46 PM	#47
ilovejedd hopeless n00b Posts: 5,111 Karma: 19597086 Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: in the middle of nowhere Device: PW4, PW3, Libra H2O, iPad 10.5, iPad 11, iPad 12.9	Given Amazon controls the firmware and the Kindle is pretty much just running a flavor of Linux, I really don't see what makes it so special that it can't be spoofed if Amazon wanted to do so. They likely wouldn't bother though. The lawsuit if discovered is much more costly. Longer reading: Spoiler: https://www.howtogeek.com/228286/how...sses-enforced/ How are MAC Addresses Determined? Vendors are given a range of MAC Addresses that can be assigned to their products by the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers). MAC Address are assigned to Vendors in various sized blocks as appropriate. The IEEE offers Registration Authority programs or registries which maintain lists of unique identifiers under standards and issue unique identifiers to those wishing to register them. The IEEE Registration Authority assigns unambiguous names to objects in a way which makes the assignment available to interested parties. Devices are Uniquely Identified by Their MAC Addresses This is incorrect. Devices are not uniquely identified by their MAC addresses. In the past vendors have intentionally or by mistake assigned the same MAC Address to multiple devices. It is possible to change the MAC Address presented by most hardware to the OS, an action often referred to as MAC spoofing: MAC spoofing is a technique for changing a factory-assigned Media Access Control (MAC) Address of a network interface on a networked device. The MAC Address is hard-coded on a network interface controller (NIC) and cannot be changed. However, there are tools which can make an operating system believe that the NIC has the MAC Address of a user’s choosing. See Also: Are MAC Addresses Unique When Coming Out of the Factory? and MAC Address Recycling? Duplicate MAC Addresses Manufacturers re-use MAC Addresses and they ship cards with duplicate addresses to different parts of the United States or the world so that there is only a very small chance two computers with network cards with the same MAC Address will end up on the same network. MAC Addresses are ‘burned’ into the Network Interface Card (NIC) and cannot be changed. See ARP and RARP on how IP addresses are translated into MAC Addresses and vice versa. In order for a network device to be able to communicate, the MAC Address it is using must be unique. No other device on that local network subnet can use that MAC Address. If two devices have the same MAC Address (which occurs more often than network administrators would like), neither computer can communicate properly. On an Ethernet LAN, this will cause a high number of collisions. Duplicate MAC Addresses on the same LAN are a problem. Duplicate MAC Addresses separated by one or more routers is not a problem since the two devices won’t see each other and will use the router to communicate. Last edited by ilovejedd; 03-10-2018 at 11:49 PM.

03-15-2018, 08:45 PM	#58
Barbara1955 Non-Techy Posts: 4,454 Karma: 15499273 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: WV---USA Device: Samsung Cell Phone & Amazon Fires & Kobo eReaders	That's what they were going to do with mine Repair AND if its determined Not under warranty My Cost! That when I Tried to contact some one to Stop the Repair Order & then Everything fell apart! I also thought they miss understood what Device was to be Fixed & Which was to be Replaced with New! After we got thru chat about the PW3 Being Exchanged for a New PW3. I asked about my Fires ... neither were being seen by my PC BOTH were under Warranty... the 10 they were going to Replace with New one BUT my 7" they said would need Repaired cause they could Not find a 2012 32 gig... That when I figured they confused the orders. haertig Maybe Repair is the New Replace ugh Last edited by Barbara1955; 03-15-2018 at 08:51 PM.

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03-11-2018, 04:48 AM	#48
Barbara1955 Non-Techy Posts: 4,454 Karma: 15499273 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: WV---USA Device: Samsung Cell Phone & Amazon Fires & Kobo eReaders	My case was such a mess they Refund my Original Purchase price. They Not sent me a Label to send the Refrib back... haven't said what to do with it. IF I haven't heard in 10 days I going to use it to buy another PW3 thru the trade-in. Part of my payment was getting Gift card balance of $35 IF I am correct that will cover Any Balance I may owe.... Basicly I still get a New PW3 for Free!

03-13-2018, 09:52 PM	#49
HLS Wizard Posts: 2,027 Karma: 15107670 Join Date: May 2017 Device: Sage, Scribe, Boox Note 2 Plus, iPad Pros and Samsungs S6,S7,S8	If a credit is processed on a canceled card it should post on the new card. I only know rthis for i worked for credit card companies. For me I was charged for music unlimited and Amazon refuses to refund me even tho it was promised. Instead I was to get a $25 credit I never received,

03-13-2018, 11:30 PM	#50
Barbara1955 Non-Techy Posts: 4,454 Karma: 15499273 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: WV---USA Device: Samsung Cell Phone & Amazon Fires & Kobo eReaders	Re-contact Amazon and Ask where the refund went. My Gift card balance is already posted on Amazon. I just not sure where the rest went. Today I got my Credit Card statement nothing posted on it for March at all.... I have to wait another month to see if its posted on next billing cycle ugh

03-14-2018, 12:29 PM	#51
BookCat C L J Posts: 2,912 Karma: 21115458 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Birmingham UK Device: Sony e-reader 505, Kindle PW2, Kindle PW3, Kobo Libra2	I still think that Amazon Chat uses the term 'new' to mean 'new to you,' not newly manufactured. In the UK we have a Small Claims Court which was set up for claiming small amounts at very little cost. You don't need legal representation, just a good argument, documentation etc.

03-14-2018, 03:47 PM	#53
haertig Wizard Posts: 1,738 Karma: 26006874 Join Date: Sep 2017 Device: PW3, Fire HD8 Gen7, Moto G7, Sansa Clip v2, Ruizu X26	See my quotes from the chat in post #15 of this thread: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=15 The Amazon rep was presented with an either/or choice: "Do I get a NEW one or a REFURB one?" (paraphrased). When presented with an either/or choice, and you respond affirmatively with one of the two choices, you can't come back later and say "they actually mean the same thing". It's refurb or new, one or the other, it can't be both. What little wiggle room a word weasel might have had saying "they're both the same thing" totally evaporated when they responded specifically to an either/or choice with one of the presented choices. If they wanted to weasel out of an either/or choice, they would have had to mention that "refurb is the same as new" in their response. They didn't do that. This is not a gray area. This is common English language usage. Playing with words is one thing, but you can only play so far without it being a lie/fraud/misrepresentation/falsehood/etc. Anyway, when I receive my replacement Kindle, I guess we'll find out if my Amazon weasel lacks a grasp of the English language like Barbara's Amazon weasel did. Next, I hope we won't be discussing that when Amazon said "New Kindle", that was just an accidental spelling error, and they meant to say "Gnu Kindle" - as in, "a Kindle previously owned by a wildebeest".

03-14-2018, 05:42 PM	#55
haertig Wizard Posts: 1,738 Karma: 26006874 Join Date: Sep 2017 Device: PW3, Fire HD8 Gen7, Moto G7, Sansa Clip v2, Ruizu X26	You are free to accept a refurb after being promised a new device if you end up in this situation. That's your decision. And I am free to argue the point with them that when they say "new device", that actually means "new device", not a refurb. That's my decision. They may very well return my original device repaired (which would be fine) or a new device to replace it. If either of those happens, I'm fine with that and this discussion is moot. But if I am sent a refurb, it is me and me alone who decides what I will do next. Personally, I will complain about it. Had I not verified with the Amazon rep that a new device would be sent, I would not complain, because their policy states that you might get a refurb. But in my case I did verify with the rep that I'd get a new one. As I mentioned in an earlier post, their policy says they get to decide whether to replace with a new or a refurb. My specific rep, in my specific chat, chose "new" after I specifically asked about that. And I sent my old device back based on that understanding. I won't sit back and sheepishly accept that "new" means "refurb" without challenge. As I said before, if "new" means "new to you", then pretty much everything on this planet is "new". There would be no such thing as a "refurb" or a "used device". That would be redundant, because they are all new. To each his own. I wouldn't hold anything against you or anyone else if you accepted a refurb after being told you would get a new one. That's your choice.

03-14-2018, 07:52 PM	#57
haertig Wizard Posts: 1,738 Karma: 26006874 Join Date: Sep 2017 Device: PW3, Fire HD8 Gen7, Moto G7, Sansa Clip v2, Ruizu X26	I just got an email that said they were able to repair my device, and are returning it after it passed all their tests. No specifics on what they did to repair it. They did mention that they reloaded the newest firmware, that it was re-registered to my account, but I'd have to re-configure any other specifics I had before (parental controls, etc.) I hope this doesn't mean that the repair was simply a reloading of the firmware with nothing else being done. Previous firmware updates have not fixed the problem before. The problem is random lockups that didn't appear to be reproducible with direct user interaction, they just randomly happened. I still believe the problem is the battery. Maybe they replaced that, who knows? They didn't say. But we shall see if the lockups return...

03-15-2018, 11:30 PM	#59
haertig Wizard Posts: 1,738 Karma: 26006874 Join Date: Sep 2017 Device: PW3, Fire HD8 Gen7, Moto G7, Sansa Clip v2, Ruizu X26	Repair is fine with me. If indeed they actually repaired anything. Since they didn't give any specifics, I'm being pessimistic and thinking that they probably just reloaded the firmware and called it good. Ugh. That didn't work when I did it, and it probably won't work if that's all they did either. Who knows? Maybe they have lower level access to the device and can read software error logs to figure out what needs to be done for a repair. Just because we as consumers don't have access to logs like that doesn't mean that the Amazon techs don't. But we'll see what the result is. I'll keep an open mind, (until it locks up again). Supposedly it will arrive here tomorrow.

03-17-2018, 12:55 AM	#60
haertig Wizard Posts: 1,738 Karma: 26006874 Join Date: Sep 2017 Device: PW3, Fire HD8 Gen7, Moto G7, Sansa Clip v2, Ruizu X26	I did indeed end up getting my original Kindle back. Not a refurb, not a new one. So I'm happy about that. We'll see if it locks up any more.

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