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Old 09-11-2017, 08:38 AM   #31
Terisa de morgan
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A programmer who has the business knowledge and skill to write the sort of program that you want, is likely to be able to make a lot more money in a traditional programming gig. You talk about 30K, but someone with that skill set in the US can command in excess of 100K.
Please, do you know where can I apply for a job like that? I think that your estimations are a wishful thinking too (from a poor developer POV).
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Old 09-11-2017, 11:15 AM   #32
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Please, do you know where can I apply for a job like that? I think that your estimations are a wishful thinking too (from a poor developer POV).
All I can say is that I've been a professional programmer since 1982 and I know how much I make. I also know what the going rate is for an experienced programmer in the contract world. For that matter, I know what the average salary for a starting programmer is coming out of Georgia Tech ($85K is the reported medium starting salary in Spring of 2017). For that matter, I made considerably more than 30K back when I graduated in 1982.

In programming, salaries rise quickly as you get experience, then level off.

Sure, there are mundane programming jobs that don't pay as much, but those tend not to require much skill. Writing a professional quality program that handles all the bells and whistles being discussed requires a lot of skill.
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Old 09-11-2017, 03:01 PM   #33
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I don't think you understand the meaning of good enough.
And I don't think you understand what I'm talking about. I'm not interested in "good enough". I'm interested in excellence. So was Steve Jobs. The shoddy mobile devices with styluses and non-responsive screens, prior to the invention of the iPhone, were "good enough", weren't they? Yes, they most definitely were.

But Steve Jobs wasn't interested in "good enough", or in the expectations of the general public. He wanted excellence. And so do I, in terms of an e-reader. There are 7 billion people on this planet, and I'm 100% certain that there is a sizable market niche for an e-reader that is not merely "good enough", like the inept iBooks and Kindle, but superb.

The trouble is that, at this point, even I, a Marvin fan and user, can't recommend Marvin to my professional colleagues with good conscience. I just can't. So you can't say whether there would be a sufficient enough market for a truly superb, professional e-reader, because such an e-reader has not yet been created in the history of humankind.

Let's create it first, let's strive for that high aim, at least in our theoretical deliberations, instead of just being content with being "slightly above mediocre", and let's see what the future brings.

You guys started talking about "wishful thinking", so here is mine: I wish that the developers of Marvin, MapleRead, Hyphen, tiReader, Moon+ Reader Pro (etc.) joined forces and created ONE superb multi-platform e-reader that would offer all the features professional users need while studying books. Yeah, it ain't gonna happen – "wishful thinking", like I said. But joining forces and creating "The Mother of All E-Readers" would make perfect sense, instead of each developer creating their own product, each coming up short in slightly different ways.

I'm not giving up hope. Perhaps corporations have conscience, too, after all. (Mitt Romney said that corporations are people, too.) Perhaps, one fine day, Apple, Amazon, and Google will finally feel deeply ashamed of the inferior e-reader products they're offering, and they will, perhaps, set up a foundation to help create a top-notch e-reader to serve that minority, world-wide, who needs a professional e-reader. It's a minority, but given 7 billion people on the planet, I'm sure it's a pretty sizable minority.

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You can't insist on anything.
Of course we can. App users provide their feedback to developers, and developers can take it or leave it. Very simple.

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Bashing a good app in an online web board because it isn't perfect in your mind merely drives the developer off and bores everyone else.
Just your private opinion, Phil (or Paul), and once again, dependent on your own (apparently "politically correct", or hyper-sensitive) definitions of terms like "bashing".

To me, stating the deficiencies of an app is not "bashing". It's stating its deficiencies, period. That's it. How could developers ever improve their apps if users never stated what the deficiencies are?

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Ok, man, change the concept: amateur use vs professional use.
Bingo!

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I agree that professional use requires more features than amateur use. But the problem here is: we're talking about a READING app.
Terisa, you think there aren't professional readers? Think again. I am one. I earn my living partly by proofreading books. I might also be a literary critic, and then I'd be earning my living by reading books, too. I might be a literary scholar, or a college student majoring in literary studies. The market is definitely there – but the app to satisfy those users is not.

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Old 09-11-2017, 03:41 PM   #34
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Terisa, you think there aren't professional readers? Think again. I am one. I earn my living partly by proofreading books. I might also be a literary critic, and then I'd be earning my living by reading books, too. I might be a literary scholar, or a college student majoring in literary studies. The market is definitely there – but the app to satisfy those users is not.
Share of market, returns and invest? Perhaps it fits. Anyway, Marvin lost me before, in a most basic sense, formatting.
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:04 PM   #35
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Just your private opinion, Phil (or Paul), and once again, dependent on your own (apparently "politically correct", or hyper-sensitive) definitions of terms like "bashing".
.
Well Frank (or Fredrick or whatever), as the saying goes, the proof is in the pudding. How well did insisting on perfection work out for you with regards to getting the developer to address your requests?

Sigh, well it's obvious you take feedback about as well as you give it. Good luck finding your perfect reader app.
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Old 09-17-2017, 04:27 PM   #36
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How well did insisting on perfection work out for you with regards to getting the developer to address your requests?
Very well, as I alluded to earlier in this thread, but once again, you failed to read carefully. So to repeat, I don't wish to brag, but quite a few popular features only exist in Marvin today because someone insisted that excellence should be our goal, not appeasing "regular users". For the mediocre stuff, there is Apple, Google and Microsoft. We should aim higher.

Terisa, I'm surprised you mention formatting as a weakness in Marvin. It's likely the prerogative that keeps me attached to Marvin despite all its shortcomings – I mean, just how nice books look in Marvin, and that I can adjust their looks just as it suits me. (You likely mean something else with "formatting".) It's the thing that got me hooked on Stanza originally – that Stanza allowed each reader to be his or her own typographer. And Marvin is just the same in this regard.
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Old 09-17-2017, 11:13 PM   #37
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No, I don't mean anything else. Having to choose for EVERY BOOK that I want the publisher formatting wasn't nice. And everybody can say how nice is to change the formatting at the app, I don't want to do it.

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Old 09-18-2017, 04:07 AM   #38
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One (not more) thing: a 30K EURO in Spain is a very good salary for a professional seasoned developer. You cannot get more money from any company, even if you are the mother of all developers.
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Old 09-18-2017, 09:02 AM   #39
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One (not more) thing: a 30K EURO in Spain is a very good salary for a professional seasoned developer. You cannot get more money from any company, even if you are the mother of all developers.
Seriously? 30K euro translates to 36K dollars. That's close to minimum wage in the US. There is a reason that a lot of programmers migrate to the US.
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Old 09-18-2017, 09:04 AM   #40
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Seriously? 30K euro translates to 36K dollars. That's close to minimum wage in the US. There is a reason that a lot of programmers migrate to the US.
I think so, but I'm a bit old at this moment to change my home
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Old 09-18-2017, 09:05 AM   #41
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Seriously? 30K euro translates to 36K dollars. That's close to minimum wage in the US. There is a reason that a lot of programmers migrate to the US.
Completely serious. The legal minimum in Spain is 9.906,40€ year.

You can look for yourself: http://www.salariominimo.es/
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Old 09-18-2017, 09:08 AM   #42
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I think so, but I'm a bit old at this moment to change my home
There is a reason I'm living in the Netherlands with a "little bit" higher salary than the 30K, and of course with a "little bit" more taxes than in Spain, but yes, it si worth to.
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Old 09-18-2017, 12:02 PM   #43
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Completely serious. The legal minimum in Spain is 9.906,40€ year.

You can look for yourself: http://www.salariominimo.es/
Oh, I'll take your word for it.
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:03 PM   #44
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No, I don't mean anything else. Having to choose for EVERY BOOK that I want the publisher formatting wasn't nice. And everybody can say how nice is to change the formatting at the app, I don't want to do it.
Ah, so that's it! You expect your e-reader to give you the exact opposite from what I expect from it. I desire nothing more than to get away from "publisher formatting" – I just never want to see it. My take is that a superb e-reader is such that allows you to easily override "publisher formatting". I wish to be "my own typesetter" for every e-book I read!

(And no, definitely not in Calibre by manually tweaking the code or any such stuff; a superb e-reader should give us those options directly in the app, and this is where apps like Marvin and Moon+ Reader on Android excel; with many shortcomings at this stage of development, of course, as Jon would be happy to point out.)

Naturally, if your priorities are different, Terisa, Marvin and other "Stanza-lookalikes" won't be your cup of tea.



Believe it or not, folks, but the legal minimum wage here in Slovakia, an EU country, is €5,220 per year. Yep, that's something over $6,250 in yearly income, and it amounts to getting paid a €2.50 hourly wage (3 US dollars for one hour of work performed). Slovakia's government is now contemplating raising the minimum wage to €5,760 per year starting from 2018, but it's getting criticized because the country apparently can't afford such luxury.

We can play that Monty Python game where they argued about who grew up in poorer conditions. And, I'm sure in many regions of the world, €5000 per year would be perceived as unimaginable wealth.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:20 AM   #45
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Ah, so that's it! You expect your e-reader to give you the exact opposite from what I expect from it. I desire nothing more than to get away from "publisher formatting" – I just never want to see it. My take is that a superb e-reader is such that allows you to easily override "publisher formatting". I wish to be "my own typesetter" for every e-book I read!

(And no, definitely not in Calibre by manually tweaking the code or any such stuff; a superb e-reader should give us those options directly in the app, and this is where apps like Marvin and Moon+ Reader on Android excel; with many shortcomings at this stage of development, of course, as Jon would be happy to point out.)
Problem is: no reader can give me (without manual tweaking) no indent in first line after chapter AND separator scene, that I like, so although the ereader gives you all the formatting in the world, it cannot do that.
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