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Old 05-22-2019, 08:17 AM   #121
shalym
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Originally Posted by Mistyfarm View Post
DT - All very valid points as far as they go. But I would add that “You can’t judge a book by it’s index” - you can quote me on that!
Sometimes the book is indeed rubbish itself but may also “reference” another as a source for some idea. So non fiction or “self help” are vastly different in that respect. Poor authors frequently quote/copy great writers/books.

I couldn’t be bothered going to the beach or a riverbank with a metal detector but some say it’s well worth the trouble. I’m a bit like that with books.

Of course it’s in Amazons interest for you to take ages finding good books and I even venture the temerity to suggest that it may be akin to the intermittent payoff, similar to slot machines.

All the while debiting your account for as long as you remain subscribed, Amazon are also harvesting the data of what subjects and how interested you are in particular titles. I’m already getting targeted full price emails from Amazon based on my downloads so far. And any purchases in that time are pure “value added” profit for them.

It costs them absolutely nothing (ok maybe a few electrons) for me to wade thru their crappy titles to find some good ones.

Seriously - have they no concept of acceptable standards or quality control?
https://www.amazon.com.au/Caribbean-.../dp/B01HOW0JOS
https://www.amazon.com.au/Caribbean-.../dp/B01HNHQS0S

No reviews, no index, no page count - 20% of my limited KU shelf space !!!!

I would seriously doubt that Amazon would be paying this nuff nuff anything just because I was sucker enough to download it. It would have COST Amazon to pay it’s employees to put/keep it up there. So here is a compelling example of why Amazon wouldn’t be paying for page/percentage views. And if they are sending offline reading counts back to base behind my back, I would want to know about that.

So why are those titles there all? Let’s hear some suggestions.

Now if anyone has a genuine rebuttal to the above, do me and everyone reading the courtesy of posting some links and references rather than just taking a quick potshot from the bushes.

haertig - I absolutely agree. I have the time and reasons to sift thru a lot of dross looking for what I need, so I did it with perhaps quite a bit of gusto at the time.

There was earlier in these posts the argument put forward that Amazon had a right to make a profit and of course I know they have shareholders to keep happy as well. And your personal example is a perfect one that speaks to the other side of the coin, your right for value for money.

We all have “shareholder/stakeholders” even if it’s “only” a wife and kids to get on our case for wasting money!

I make no apology for trying to get my hard earned money’s worth either.
First of all, are you *seriously* saying that you looked at that title and didn't realize that it was a single recipe?

Second of all, of course the "author" of that "book" is getting paid when you download it and go to the end of the book. That's why they put it up there. With the way Kindle Unlimited paid authors originally, they probably were losing money. With the new way, the author only gets paid a tiny amount each time the recipe is read, since he/she is paid based on the actual number of pages read, and this is probably only 2 pages at most. The amount paid for this "book" is truly minuscule, since the per page rate (for April) is $0.0046601941747573‬. So the book has to be at least 3 pages for the author to make a penny each time it's read to the end.

Third of all, they are absolutely sending offline reading counts "back to base" every time you turn your wifi on. The data is held on the device while wifi is off, then sent the next time you turn the wifi back on. They aren't doing this "behind your back", though, it's right in the terms of service for your device:
https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/help/cu...deId=202002080
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3. General

a. Information Received. The Software will provide Amazon with information about use of your Amazon Device and its interaction with Digital Content and the Services (such as last page read, content archiving, available memory, up-time, log files, network diagnostics, content usage, search queries, location, voice information, connectivity and signal strength). Information provided to Amazon may be processed in the cloud to improve your experience and our products and services, and may be stored on servers outside the country in which you live. We will handle any information we receive in accordance with the Amazon.com.au Privacy Notice.
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:29 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Mistyfarm View Post
No reviews, no index, no page count - 20% of my limited KU shelf space !!!!
...
So why are those titles there all? Let’s hear some suggestions.
Those books are there because Amazon lets authors decide what they want to publish and lets readers vote on the result with their reviews. There is no gatekeeper as in traditional publishing. The reviews are key. To make the system work you need to leave reviews and in turn rely on the reviews of others.

A book with no reviews is a total unknown. I personally wouldn't bother with one. I will rely on those with more patience and free time to sort the rare gems from the pile of sludge that makes up the bulk of the KU catalog.

In this case I think that it was a smart idea to split a cookbook up into individual recipes. That way a reader does not to wade through a whole book to find the one recipe they are looking for. But I wouldn't bother with one unless it had several good reviews.

Last edited by jhowell; 05-22-2019 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:41 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Mistyfarm View Post
DT - All very valid points as far as they go. But I would add that “You can’t judge a book by it’s index” - you can quote me on that!
Oh crap, now I’m quoting myself!! See what I’ve descended to? !!

Here’s a perfect example DT, that fell into my lap this evening;

https://www.amazon.com.au/Darkness-V.../dp/B00BBPVYUS

The “look inside” gives you NOTHING! The index is sh*tty and the page count is less than 100 BUT it’s written by an acclaimed author and referred to and quoted in; https://www.amazon.com.au/Darkness-M.../dp/B00QMSCMPU which is one of those binge titles in KU that I’m not ordinarily drawn to; as a perhaps “Christian book” flavour for religious readers. It’s actually really quite good.
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:42 AM   #124
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First of all, are you *seriously* saying that you looked at that title and didn't realize that it was a single recipe?
Um yeah. Doh! for me thinking that Amazon had "merchantable quality standards" (Au law) and protected themselves against author scammers as vigorously as their algorithms "protected" them from fully paid up subscribers like me!

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Originally Posted by shalym View Post
Second of all, of course the "author" of that "book" is getting paid when you download it and go to the end of the book. That's why they put it up there. With the way Kindle Unlimited paid authors originally, they probably were losing money. With the new way, the author only gets paid a tiny amount each time the recipe is read, since he/she is paid based on the actual number of pages read, and this is probably only 2 pages at most. The amount paid for this "book" is truly minuscule, since the per page rate (for April) is $0.0046601941747573. So the book has to be at least 3 pages for the author to make a penny each time it's read to the end.
I’ll take that as a grassy knoll potshot since there’s no proof or link to substantiate payments or payment methods, was I not polite enough requesting verifications?

Oh yeah, you provide some here coz it’s convenient;

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Originally Posted by shalym View Post
Third of all, they are absolutely sending offline reading counts "back to base" every time you turn your wifi on. The data is held on the device while wifi is off, then sent the next time you turn the wifi back on. They aren't doing this "behind your back", though, it's right in the terms of service for your device:
https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/help/cu...deId=202002080
Shari
Well, there was NO Cloud when I joined Amazon and got my first Kindle …… so ‘scuuuuuuse me for ticking all those “Yada Yada” boxes for the last decade!!
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:44 AM   #125
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Those books are there because Amazon lets authors decide what they want to publish and lets readers vote on the result with their reviews. There is no gatekeeper as in traditional publishing.
Yeah …….. not my problem. (Au consumer laws are quite good on “merchantable quality” issues).

….. and for the record ….. I choose NOT to be a beta tester/reviewer for anyone nor will I choose the “self checkout” that some “trained” sheeple are now being roped into at the shops/stores and doing the job for the retailers.
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:22 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Mistyfarm View Post
Yeah …….. not my problem. (Au consumer laws are quite good on “merchantable quality” issues).

….. and for the record ….. I choose NOT to be a beta tester/reviewer for anyone nor will I choose the “self checkout” that some “trained” sheeple are now being roped into at the shops/stores and doing the job for the retailers.
KU is a new type of service that would not be possible to provide affordably if they had to vet each book for quality ahead of time, especially since quality is very subjective. A single good recipe is fine in my opinion, just like a single good short story. KU makes possible things that would not be economical to provide as separate e-book purchases.

If you don't think that you are getting value for your money then drop the service. If you think they are violating consumer protection laws then refer them to the appropriate government agency or take them to court yourself.
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:25 AM   #127
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^ I totally agree with you, jhowell.
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Old 05-22-2019, 03:22 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Mistyfarm View Post
Oh crap, now I’m quoting myself!! See what I’ve descended to? !!

Here’s a perfect example DT, that fell into my lap this evening;

https://www.amazon.com.au/Darkness-V.../dp/B00BBPVYUS

The “look inside” gives you NOTHING! The index is sh*tty and the page count is less than 100 BUT it’s written by an acclaimed author and referred to and quoted in; https://www.amazon.com.au/Darkness-M.../dp/B00QMSCMPU which is one of those binge titles in KU that I’m not ordinarily drawn to; as a perhaps “Christian book” flavour for religious readers. It’s actually really quite good.
Are you saying that you are incapable to decide based on the information available ? Simply because the look inside only gives you a short foreword? The synopsis and reviews (4.4 stars from over 500) is no indication that the book is worth reading? The only issue I see with the book is maybe the price which appears quite high. I also notice that this particular book is not in KU.

So exactly which point are you trying to prove?
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Old 05-22-2019, 07:37 PM   #129
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If you don't think that you are getting value for your money then drop the service. If you think they are violating consumer protection laws then refer them to the appropriate government agency or take them to court yourself.
I only complained about being locked out i.e. Zero service during the lockout.

I was not the first person to mention author payments scams and alleged page count commissions.

I queried the "payments" because it does not make sense to me that Amazon can programme reams and reams of code to provide their mega billion corporation with great profits and power but I'm asked to believe they can't filter out a 1 page "book" and are then also dumb enough to pay the "author" because everyone who clicks on it has technically read the whole book??

And I am now back to being able to Borrow again so I see putting up with crappy books as the "cost of doing business" with Amazon, just like having my data harvested is and just like Spam is the cost using internet email. (Unless you think being spammed is my fault too and that the spammers should be allowed to do so willy nilly)
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Old 05-22-2019, 07:38 PM   #130
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Are you saying that you are incapable to decide based on the information available ?
I'm saying that your suggestion is not as simple as it sounds.


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Originally Posted by DuckieTigger View Post
So exactly which point are you trying to prove?
My point was, that if you look at the 2nd link Darkness Is My Only Companion: A Christian Response to Mental Illness, you'll see that IS a KU title in Australia (I gave the .com.au link) and in that KU book, it refers a few times and quotes from the Darkness Visible title, which I then followed up on.

Ergo, your point of ......
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The synopsis and reviews (4.4 stars from over 500) is no indication that the book is worth reading?
.... allows for the opposite position, no reviews, no index does NOT mean that the book is NOT worth reading. Which is what I'm finding, sometimes.
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:40 PM   #131
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@Mistyfarm. The situation is very simple. If you believe consumer law has been violated, take action. All you have to do is pick up the phone or even fill in a form online. You don't have to go to Court. There are cheap convenient tribunals available. Secondly, you now seem to understand the terms and conditions applicable to your use of KU, yet still keep your membership. If you are not happy, leave.

Or you could of course just continue to whinge.
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:33 PM   #132
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I’ll take that as a grassy knoll potshot since there’s no proof or link to substantiate payments or payment methods, was I not polite enough requesting verifications?
Here's the page on Amazon that talks about how authors are compensated. It doesn't list the actual payout per page, as that changes every month. I found the actual payout per page on an author's forum...I'm pretty sure that Amazon doesn't publish the actual payout per page publicly, only to the authors. the authors then publish that info on various forums and blogs.
Post that lists KU payouts for the past few months:
https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,311845.0.html
Page on Amazon that explains how KU works for authors:
https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G201541130
Just in case you don't feel like following the link to the Amazon page:
Quote:
Kindle Edition Normalized Page Count (KENPC v3.0)
To determine a book's page count in a way that works across genres, devices, and display settings, we developed the Kindle Edition Normalized Page Count (KENPC). KENPC is calculated using standard formatting settings (font, line height, line spacing, etc.). We use KENPC to measure the number of pages customers read in your book, starting with the Start Reading Location (SRL) to the end of your book. Amazon typically sets SRL at chapter 1 so readers can start reading the core content of your book as soon as they open it. Non-text elements within books including images, charts and graphs will count toward a book’s KENPC.

KENPC v3.0
We released KENPC v3.0 to improve the way we measure how many pages of each book Kindle Unlimited and KOLL customers read. We're constantly working to improve our programs and increase fairness of how we allocate the KDP Select Global Fund. These changes continue to improve the program and reward authors whose books are being borrowed and read the most by customers.

The KENPC v3.0 update applies uniformly to all KDP Select books and all versions of those books. Regardless of which version a customer may be reading, all future royalties will be paid using KENPC v3.0. If a customer previously borrowed your book and is still reading it, any new pages read will be based on KENPC v3.0.

Authors are able to earn a maximum of 3,000 Kindle Edition Normalized Pages (KENPs) read per title per customer. This means that each time your book is borrowed and read, you will receive credit for up to 3,000 pages. We believe this results in an equitable distribution of the KDP Select Global Fund.

Your book's KENPC
You can see your book's KENPC v3.0 listed on the "Promote and Advertise" page in your Bookshelf, and you can also see total pages read on your Sales Dashboard report. Because it's based on default settings, KENPC v3.0 may vary from page counts listed on your Amazon detail page, which are derived from other sources.

KDP Select Global Fund
Our total payout from the KDP Select Global Fund will be unaffected by the transition to KENPC v3.0, and the amount you earn from the global fund will continue to be determined based on your share of total pages read by Kindle Unlimited (KU) and Kindle Owners' Lending Library (KOLL) customers. The new KENPC version will be applied uniformly to all KDP Select books and used to measure all pages read.
Is that verification enough?

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Old 05-22-2019, 10:43 PM   #133
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Of course it’s in Amazons interest for you to take ages finding good books and I even venture the temerity to suggest that it may be akin to the intermittent payoff, similar to slot machines.

All the while debiting your account for as long as you remain subscribed, Amazon are also harvesting the data of what subjects and how interested you are in particular titles. I’m already getting targeted full price emails from Amazon based on my downloads so far. And any purchases in that time are pure “value added” profit for them.
You ever consider that maybe KU just isn't for you?
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Old 05-23-2019, 04:49 AM   #134
Mistyfarm
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If you are not happy, leave.
What? Leave? And disappoint all my new friends?

Perish the thought!

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Or you could of course just continue to whinge.
Ouch! I’ll add that to the list of names so far, shall I?

But just to point out a “minor” fact. I have only made very few unprompted posts. Most of my 40+ posts have been from the back foot answering barbs and dodging arrows……. just sayin’
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Old 05-23-2019, 04:52 AM   #135
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You ever consider that maybe KU just isn't for you?
Actually I’m willing to stay subscribed with my KU membership for a while longer, now that they’ve restored access AND I finally have some truth and info about the boundaries. I can live with that.

But you raise a good side point …….. Hands up everyone here who actually has an active KU subscription?
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