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Old 07-25-2014, 05:18 AM   #46
martienne
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You can get the text, that doesn't mean you have the right to distribute it
And I haven't. I am starting this thread, by making it clear that I am interested in putting it on my e-reader. The modern equivalent of reading a book or a series of photocopies. I.e. I am a citizen who is exercising my right to read SOU 2000:100. They cannot touch me for that: It's protected in the constitution! The Americans protect their guns and what not, in their constitution. We protect the right to read state documentation, which is all I am doing.

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I don't know how it is in Sweden,
No, and you probably don't speak the language fluently, and you didn't study law in Sweden as part of your degree, like I did. I won't say a word to you about copyright in lovely Spain, and I am not concerned in the slightest, what Spanish citizens do with Spanish documentation. If you came here and wanted assistance with ripping that dictionary you mentioned, I'd just go ahead and help you, assuming you as an adult had considered any copyright aspects.


----

Is the flipping copyright lecture mandatory do get help in this forum? The ratio of pro copyright ranting in this thread, to actual technical discussion, is like 4 - 1.

Did I miss the secret initiation rite where you have to write in blood that you swear to protect copyright before all else, as I joined the forum?

Or are there people on the payroll of some kind of international pro copyright organisation?

Seriously: got the message back on page 1. A brief "just be careful that you don't break any copyright laws, the forum discourages that", would have been sufficient. We are educated adults here, aren't we? All this totally OTT lecturing just has the opposite effect, let me assure you.
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Old 07-25-2014, 05:48 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by martienne View Post
Is the flipping copyright lecture mandatory do get help in this forum? The ratio of pro copyright ranting in this thread, to actual technical discussion, is like 4 - 1.
I was just lurking in the edges of this topic since it was posted. Just wanted to stop in and say, fantastic work martienne for bringing this little project up.

There is some good/important info here for how to pull HTML out of dastardly javascript sites. This should be helpful to quite a few people in their various projects.

I know there were a few projects on my end that were stuck in some crappy websites, and my usual web crawler wouldn't work.

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Did I miss the secret initiation rite where you have to write in blood that you swear to protect copyright before all else, as I joined the forum?

[...]

Or are there people on the payroll of some kind of international pro copyright organisation?
Sure feels like it the past few weeks... the copyright maximalists police were out in full force in multiple topics!
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Old 07-25-2014, 01:55 PM   #48
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Is the flipping copyright lecture mandatory do get help in this forum? The ratio of pro copyright ranting in this thread, to actual technical discussion, is like 4 - 1.
Actually, more like the opposite, if someone would care to read the whole thread from the start. And as others have said, it's normal for the threads here to run off-topic, it has nothing to do with the OP or should be taken as personal criticism, bashing or flaming. Also bear in mind that the participators comes from all over the world, and writes and understand english at different levels. Sometimes one has to be able to read a lot between the lines. What you sees as lecturing almost never is meant as such, but is just well-meant advice and help.

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Did I miss the secret initiation rite where you have to write in blood that you swear to protect copyright before all else, as I joined the forum?
Nah, nothing that drastic But Mobileread has an expressed policy of not endorsing piracy. Since most people in here probably has difficulties reading swedish, and doubt was expressed as to the legality of your project, I took the liberty to make an abridged and simplified translation of the rules regarding the use of the Bible2000 as stated on bibelselskabet.se. Otherwise you probably wouldn't have gotten any help.

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Or are there people on the payroll of some kind of international pro copyright organisation?
Nope. And calm down, no-one is challenging your right to your personal copy, so why do you keep defending yourself?

That said (I'll probably be inviting some bashing from the non-copyright wing, but I just can't keep my mouth shut, can I ): I do make a sort of living from my "art" - not art as in painting or music, as skreutzer seems to have read it, but the "art" of making - I think - beautiful ebooks from otherwise unreadable sources for a rather modest fee. Charging for my work makes me able to buy food, shelter, a computer and an internet connection, and live on to make more works accessible instead of lying down to die in the nearest ditch. Make no mistake, I fully respect those, that does such work for free, it's their choice - I just don't, and I would be seriously p..... off if someone grabbed a copy of ... say, one of my translations - representing several hundred hours of work - and spread them as their own.

Regards

Kim
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Old 07-25-2014, 03:49 PM   #49
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@elibrarian:
Just to be clear, there's nothing wrong with making beautiful books from otherweise unreadable sources for a rather modest fee (I do the same, but without the fee part because of tax law), as long as you don't put your results under new copyright restriction for another 70 years after your death in order to generate payments by artificially restricting access and violating the digital freedoms your readers deserve just as any other computer user does. I for instance would pay for such work if the result is freely licensed (I didn't actually do yet except in the field of software development), and I would refuse a restrictively licensed work even if I could get it gratis with basic usage permission. Today, all of us can be readers, a press, a distributor etc., so I need to establish and maintain for myself and others the ability to work with such material, especially when it comes to software or other works of practical use (works of entertainment don't have to be handled that strict). Additionally, the rules of digital economy tell that the production of works is of some cost, but copying and distributing them is not. Therefore in the long term, one might charge for the former, not for the latter (except optionally for convenience or voluntarily, but never for artificially restricted access).

That's my bit of further OT discussion ;-) No, honestly, I thought that some of the questions answered a second time were already answered in previous posts of this thread. From martienne's description, I hopefully understood correctly that the Swedish copyright law excludes works issued by the state from copyright protection and doesn't only ensure that Swedish citizens can get a printed and electronic copy of a document while still distribution stays prohibited. In German copyright law, there's such an exception, because otherwise the state could refer to copyright protection for official documents in court cases, which would be highly impractical. Unfortunately, the German state hasn't issued a bible translation yet... From what I understand, martienne claims that bibelsällskapet.se lies or at least misinforms, which isn't too uncommon for so called “Christian” publishing houses, but if not, potentially illegal distribution already takes place via pastebin. Instead of a Scientology case, I first remembered the Piratbyrån/The Pirate Bay case in terms of Swedish mentality regarding copyright, so that's interesting to hear about the Scientology case associated with trade sanctions. As Tex2002ans referred to the technical discussion, I didn't mentioned it yet, but I obtained the Bible 2000 text from that website by using the “Save As”, “Website, complete” feature of my version of Mozilla Firefox, which saves the displayed website just as it is currently loaded, including all elements that got inserted by AJAX or other JavaScript. But as it was pointed out, the URL in the JavaScript of that page is an even better source to retrieve the text from.

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Old 07-25-2014, 04:45 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skreutzer View Post
@elibrarian:
Just to be clear, there's nothing wrong with making beautiful books from otherweise unreadable sources for a rather modest fee (I do the same, but without the fee part because of tax law), as long as you don't put your results under new copyright restriction for another 70 years after your death in order to generate payments by artificially restricting access and violating the digital freedoms your readers deserve just as any other computer user does. I for instance would pay for such work if the result is freely licensed (I didn't actually do yet except in the field of software development), and I would refuse a restrictively licensed work even if I could get it gratis with basic usage permission. Today, all of us can be readers, a press, a distributor etc., so I need to establish and maintain for myself and others the ability to work with such material, especially when it comes to software or other works of practical use (works of entertainment don't have to be handled that strict). Additionally, the rules of digital economy tell that the production of works is of some cost, but copying and distributing them is not. Therefore in the long term, one might charge for the former, not for the latter (except optionally for convenience or voluntarily, but never for artificially restricted access).
AFAIK, Kim is translating the works--and he's perfectly within his rights to copyright that work. What he does with the formatting, I can't say nor speak to, but translations are always, in the US, at least, entitled to their own copyright.



Quote:
That's my bit of further OT discussion ;-) No, honestly, I thought that some of the questions answered a second time were already answered in previous posts of this thread. From martienne's description, I hopefully understood correctly that the Swedish copyright law excludes works issued by the state from copyright protection and doesn't only ensure that Swedish citizens can get a printed and electronic copy of a document while still distribution stays prohibited. In German copyright law, there's such an exception, because otherwise the state could refer to copyright protection for official documents in court cases, which would be highly impractical. Unfortunately, the German state hasn't issued a bible translation yet... From what I understand, martienne claims that bibelsällskapet.se lies or at least misinforms, which isn't too uncommon for so called “Christian” publishing houses, but if not, potentially illegal distribution already takes place via pastebin. Instead of a Scientology case, I first remembered the Piratbyrån/The Pirate Bay case in terms of Swedish mentality regarding copyright, so that's interesting to hear about the Scientology case associated with trade sanctions. As Tex2002ans referred to the technical discussion, I didn't mentioned it yet, but I obtained the Bible 2000 text from that website by using the “Save As”, “Website, complete” feature of my version of Mozilla Firefox, which saves the displayed website just as it is currently loaded, including all elements that got inserted by AJAX or other JavaScript. But as it was pointed out, the URL in the JavaScript of that page is an even better source to retrieve the text from.

As far as the rest of it: the offended poster, being new here, doesn't understand that most of the experienced people here aren't simply writing to HER. They are writing for all the others who will come along and read the material, 99.99% of whom won't be in the unique position of arguing that they're entitled to take the material (which claims to have a price tag) through some arcana in Swedish law.

And, really, if our free help is so reprehensibly overburdened with moralizing and debate, then perhaps she'll be happier looking elsewhere for it. Personally, when I'm asking experienced people in any field--technical, whatever--to donate their time to me, I consider their comments, advice, input, etc., part of the price I pay in lieu of paying money in consulting fees for that time. I mean, GOSH...if I were to whinge and complain that someone or some people giving freely of their technical expertise had the unmitigated gall and nerve to impose their thoughts upon me as well, I'd have to wonder at what point I became such an ungrateful little s**t.

...and, having managed to avoid the entire copyright debate in this thread throughout, I'm done here.

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Old 07-25-2014, 06:16 PM   #51
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And, really, if our free help is so reprehensibly overburdened with moralizing and debate, then perhaps she'll be happier looking elsewhere for it. Personally, when I'm asking experienced people in any field--technical, whatever--to donate their time to me, I consider their comments, advice, input, etc., part of the price I pay in lieu of paying money in consulting fees for that time. I mean, GOSH...if I were to whinge and complain that someone or some people giving freely of their technical expertise had the unmitigated gall and nerve to impose their thoughts upon me as well, I'd have to wonder at what point I became such an ungrateful little s**t.
Well, I think that natural state is to help people. And if people demand to be able to give a sermon before helping people I really do not think they are very nice people.
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Old 07-25-2014, 07:24 PM   #52
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Well, I think that natural state is to help people. And if people demand to be able to give a sermon before helping people I really do not think they are very nice people.
Really? I think that the natural state of most people is to give their opinions, knowledgeable or otherwise, which we see freely all over the net. (Quora, anyone?). In fact, the less knowledgeable the holder, the more freely and vociferously those opinions tend to be provided.

And nobody here "sermonized." It was a simple discussion. It's hardly secret that folks have strong feelings about DRM, (as in, your signature block, which certainly broadcasts YOUR "sermonizing" about it--does that mean that you're not very nice?), and, as I said: most of the posters--and those most helpful to her--certainly had every right to speak to the other people who will come along and read the thread. Many posters here at MR don't even understand how DRM works. Having a perfectly civil (for a change) discussion about her particular situation was one of the more useful I've seen.

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Old 07-26-2014, 02:57 AM   #53
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AFAIK, Kim is translating the works--and he's perfectly within his rights to copyright that work. What he does with the formatting, I can't say nor speak to, but translations are always, in the US, at least, entitled to their own copyright.
Well, some of them. Of course I don't translate danish to danish, even if it sometimes feel like it, transcribing from more or less complete 1800's blackletter prints. But anyway, of course I only claim rights for whatever endorsements I do - annotations, editiorial work - and the translations. Derivative work does not (and of course should not) alter the copyright status of the original work.

But now we're going way of on a tangent ... again

Regards,

Kim
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Old 07-26-2014, 06:16 AM   #54
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@elibrarian:
As Hitch correctly pointed out, it is within your right to license your results as they are your own creation restrictively, so depending on your licensing terms, I might have to wait those 70 years after your death (or even longer, if copyright protection time gets extended again instead of significantly reduced) if you exclude some of the digital freedoms from your licensing, which I potentially might want or need. I guess I will be dead before it goes into public domain. So do you publish the transcribed work without endorsements (annotations, editorial work) or only with them, so it would be quite hard to extract the original, unchanged text without doing a proofreading again?

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Old 07-26-2014, 06:57 AM   #55
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The point of mentioning copyright is to make sure that the person asking the question is aware of the issue and of the limitations of making personal copies. Most posters don't have legal training and new ones particularly are not aware of how very arcane if not downright stupid and greedy some of the copyright law is.

But it is the law and the managers of the forum don't want to run afoul of it for practical and/or personal reasons. Most people here just want to make sure Mr. New Poster or Miss New Poster don't go spreading their new found wealth around the internet and end up with Giant Megacompany coming after them for $50,000 for the privilege of using the copyrighted work, whether it is worth that or not.

Ditto on the fonts issue, Times New Roman, Arial, etc that are everywhere but they are NOT free.
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Old 07-26-2014, 07:39 AM   #56
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@elibrarian:
As Hitch correctly pointed out, it is within your right to license your results as they are your own creation restrictively, so depending on your licensing terms, I might have to wait those 70 years after your death (or even longer, if copyright protection time gets extended again instead of significantly reduced) if you exclude some of the digital freedoms from your licensing, which I potentially might want or need. I guess I will be dead before it goes into public domain. So do you publish the transcribed work without endorsements (annotations, editorial work) or only with them, so it would be quite hard to extract the original, unchanged text without doing a proofreading again?
In some of the earlier publications of mine it will probably be quite hard to distinguish what's mine and what not. I make only one edition of each work. I do not operate with any specific licensing, since - according to danish law - copyright is implicit where applicable - no © sign or registration necessary (and yes, I know the various Creative Commons-licenses. I also know that most people have an idea that everything you find on the internet is yours for the taking - believe me: I know!).

But as I've said, derivative work has no impact on the copyright status of the original work, and anyone can make their own editions of the original as they please. You may not have to wait 70 years to read my editions (at present all of them can be borrowed via the public libraries in Denmark), but you will have to wait 70 years to copy them to your neighbour, so to speak. I don't find that unreasonable, except 70 years after my death is idiotic (actually I don't care what happens after I'm dead, and my grandchildren will have to fight their own battles without my economic subsidy).

But I find this discussion a little esoteric. I publish primarily to make the books accessible to readers, which does not automatically or necessarily entitles anyone to spread these editions all over the internet. I know your views from other threads, and I guess I'll never win you over, just as you won't me - that probably makes me a nasty criminal in your view so for now, just let us agree that we disagree on some points.

Regards,

Kim
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Old 07-27-2014, 02:06 AM   #57
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Personally, I did find a lot of the copyright schmoozing in this thread to be a little repetitive, so I understand where the OP is coming from -- while at the same time recognizing that, to an MR veteran, this kind of stuff should be expected, and that no one meant to be or sound accusatory.

So. All in all, the finest of MobileRead traditions.
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Old 07-28-2014, 05:57 AM   #58
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ok - but the situation with e-librarian is different because Denmark is small country probably with a poorly developed e-book market. What elibrarian is talking about is specific to Denmark which none of us know about.

Likewise the situation with my Swedish example was pretty unique as well. Had this been an English major Bible edition, it would already be ripped a long time ago, and the vendor would be selling it in various ebook formats. Neither was the case.

I think most of us are looking at this from a perspective of living under Amazon dominance, or dominance of some other very large and profitable vendor. In the English speaking market, for example, almost all Bible texts actually are copyrighted and owned by profitable corporations like Zondervan and the like.

ELibrarian's experiences are unique to his market where nobody else is active here, and he is clearly a bit of a pioneer. Clearly he knows the market and we don't, and he's performing a services that is in demand.

I fear for Elibrarians business once Amazon make their entry into the DK market. Hopefully I'm wrong. They have got their eyes on Sweden, FYI Kim, and the Swedish publishers are shocked already by their tactics.

The Swedish market for buying physical books online is really bad, to be honest, at least it was last time I tried it. I don't believe they put DRM on ebooks though, which is nice.

But at least the money you pay stays in the country and goes to local people. I am willing to put up with less efficient service rather than than have a ruthless American corporation dominate the market, not pay tax and move their money abroad, which is how Amazon operates in Europe (they tax in Luxembourg, how convenient).
The Swedish vendors will get there eventually.

Last edited by martienne; 07-28-2014 at 05:59 AM.
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