EU Court of Justice on DRM circumvention

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by rjcchan

I think you are reading too much into this. What "significant commercial purpose or use" do DRM removal tools have?

Being able to read purchased books on different brands of ebook reader. That and certainty of being able to read purchased ebooks in the future.

Those two reasons are why the vast majority of people use DRM removal software on their purchased ebooks.

[hardcastle]

I don't think it's specific enough to be considered a victory. There's a lot of complicated definition (or, in lieu of that, vagueness) that would make the whole effort pointless.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by hardcastle

I don't think it's specific enough to be considered a victory. There's a lot of complicated definition (or, in lieu of that, vagueness) that would make the whole effort pointless.

The vagueness in this case IS, I think, the potential victory here. I believe in some countries of the EU, DRM removal (for whatever reason) is considered illegal. Period. This casts doubt that didn't exist (in those locations) before.

[Little.Egret]

Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx

This is very interesting news.

Does the decision have general application on DRM matters across the EU, or is it case specific and only apply to Nintendo.

So, can the case be referred to by courts in other jurisdictions both within the EU and in Europe generally.

Maybe too detailed a question.

Every EU country's courts has to take account of the guidance on any case involving this EU directive. But each court (including the Italian one that asked for help here) has to establish its own facts on matters like "The national court may, in particular, examine how often those devices, products or components are in fact used in disregard of copyright and how often they are used for purposes which do not infringe copyright"

When a format conversion is "infringement" is for the national courts too.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Being able to read purchased books on different brands of ebook reader. That and certainty of being able to read purchased ebooks in the future.

Those two reasons are why the vast majority of people use DRM removal software on their purchased ebooks.

The vast majority of people on MobileRead.

AFAIK, there is no information about this with regard to normal consumers.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

The vast majority of people on MobileRead.

AFAIK, there is no information about this with regard to normal consumers.

Normal consumers don't remove DRM.

There have been between one and two hundred thousand downloads of the tools. There are tens of millions of people reading ebooks.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Normal consumers don't remove DRM.

There have been between one and two hundred thousand downloads of the tools. There are tens of millions of people reading ebooks.

Indeed. That was what I was aiming at: all of those tens of millions of people will get into one or more problems related to DRM, someday.

[sirmaru]

Most folks, who read eBooks, are just interested in READING. They are probably not technophile hobbyists who like to work all kinds of other software products to play around with their eBook files.

Just learning to use their eBook reader is challenge enough. Many probably cannot even master that task and stay with pBooks.

Most of those eReader fans probably don't even know what DRM means much less try to remove it.

[Freeshadow]

Some - being rereaders - are interested in being able to read their stufff in 10+ years from now. If they are ignorant of DRM they WILL end up screwed one day. It's not about being technophile. It's preparedness in a digital environment.

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

Some - being rereaders - are interested in being able to read their stufff in 10+ years from now. If they are ignorant of DRM they WILL end up screwed one day. It's not about being technophile. It's preparedness in a digital environment.

Precisely! I am by no means a technophile, I learn what I need to so that I can accomplish what I want and that's it. I keep all of my books and I reread constantly.

When I first came on here I didn't see the big deal about drm, but then too many people came on complaining about losing their books either because they didn't bother downloading them and the places they bought them from went belly up or the technology changed leaving them stranded. I finally decided to download Alf & friends and learn what I needed to do to keep my books free and accessible on all of the machines I have that can read ebooks.

If the day comes that Alf is unable to break any new drm, I will promptly seek out the DN to get what I want. I seriously doubt that I will be alone in this.

My attitude will be shaped on how you treat me. Treat me with disrespect, and I will give you the same in return.

People are funny like that, the moment you start impinging on their freedom, they get their back up and come out swinging.

[hardcastle]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Most folks, who read eBooks, are just interested in READING. They are probably not technophile hobbyists who like to work all kinds of other software products to play around with their eBook files.

Just learning to use their eBook reader is challenge enough. Many probably cannot even master that task and stay with pBooks.

Most of those eReader fans probably don't even know what DRM means much less try to remove it.

This is an enormous generalization that can barely be proven. There are certainly consumers who do and don't break DRM, and prospective consumers chased away by vendor lock-in, and actual pragmatic reasons to break DRM (vendor lock-in made iTunes DRM breaking tasks fairly mainstream), that the whole situation is anything but simple.

Add to that the notion that eBooks may be or become a niche market (which continues to be debated to an endless apathy), where users of devices can be expected to have a general understanding of their technology. The smaller the market, the more in-depth each customer tends to be. This is not proof that DRM is often broken, just an illustration of the complex situation.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

The vagueness in this case IS, I think, the potential victory here. I believe in some countries of the EU, DRM removal (for whatever reason) is considered illegal. Period. This casts doubt that didn't exist (in those locations) before.

Doubt has the potential to open a door, but will it actually be used and will it stay open? I strongly doubt it.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Most folks, who read eBooks, are just interested in READING. They are probably not technophile hobbyists who like to work all kinds of other software products to play around with their eBook files.

Just learning to use their eBook reader is challenge enough. Many probably cannot even master that task and stay with pBooks.

Most of those eReader fans probably don't even know what DRM means much less try to remove it.

You know?

You're 100% right.

And that is exactly why they will get into trouble some day.

"Why can't read my Amazon books on my new Kobo? They're e-books, right?"

Then they go looking for a solution.

- Oh, the Kobo uses a format different from Amazon's. OK, makes sense.
- Hey, Calibre can convert my books. Too Cool!
- *download Calibre, install*
- *import books*
- *convert*

Yay, done... NOT.

ERROR

$%@$#%^%%#&@!%$!$#4

And then they start asking around, discovering that they CAN'T convert the books because of DRM, and they have to solve THAT problem first.

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

Some - being rereaders - are interested in being able to read their stufff in 10+ years from now. If they are ignorant of DRM they WILL end up screwed one day. It's not about being technophile. It's preparedness in a digital environment.

Correct. At some point, people get screwed up *BECAUSE* they are ignorant.

And I certainly want to re-read some stuff. Less than before, but still. (I have some books that I've re-read 5 times or more, sometimes in different languages.)

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by hardcastle

Doubt has the potential to open a door, but will it actually be used and will it stay open? I strongly doubt it.

Maybe not. But it doesn't change the fact that this represents legal (documented) wiggle room. Whether anything comes of it doesn't change its current "step-in-the-right-direction"-ness (which is what is being acknowledged).

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

And that is exactly why they will get into trouble some day.

Not so sure this is all that accurate. I suspect the number of people who are:
1) technologically ignorant of DRM,
2) AND buy lots of book, AND re-read a lot,
3) AND will discover down the road that the book the want to re-read won't work on their new device,
4) AND will become enraged by that situation...

is actually pretty small.

I think most will just buy the book again without a lot of thought.

I hate DRM as much as the next MobileReader, but when it comes right down to it... I believe the vast majority of people who are EVER going to care about DRM, already do. *shrug*

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I think most will just buy the book again without a lot of thought.

Maybe in the US. Not in the EU.

I worked as a support engineer for ****.

That company had a device that appeared to have a huge design flaw, which would only manifest itself after several years. The company decided to replace all of these devices if they failed, as long as they were not yet 8 years old.

So, I had customers on the phone, complaining about a device that had failed after "just" 7.5 years of use.

"No problem sir. This is a known problem, the device will be fixed under warranty, een though it's 7.5 years old."
- "Very nice! Are you going to come and pick it up?"
"No, sorry. You'll have to send it in."
- "Oh, OK. Are you going to reimburse the shipping costs?"
"I'm sorry, but we don't. In this case, shipping costs are not covered under the warranty."

*EXPLODE*

- "SO I WILL NEED TO SPEND €6.95 TO HAVE THIS DESIGN FLAW FIXED?! OUTRAGEOUS! I WANT TO SPEAK TO YOUR TEAMLEADER! YOUR MANAGER.... THE... THE.... PRESIDENT OF THE ENTIRE COMPANY! NOOOOW!!"

And no, that was not an isolated reaction. This was the reaction of about 50% of the customers who called in with regard to problems with this device. We're talking about a €100 device that failed after 7.5 years, and could be fixed for €6.95 of shipping costs.

I think many people would be enraged (at least over here) if they would find out that they "just" had to buy all of their books over again if they'd want to reread any of them.