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Old 06-15-2020, 06:22 PM   #31
DNSB
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Kobo and Amazon are so far ahead on the process of downloading an OD book--Nook will never compete.
And for library borrowing, Amazon only competes inside the USA. Outside the USA, borrowing a Kindle format book from a library is not supported.
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Old 06-15-2020, 06:27 PM   #32
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The big gaps and awkward hyphenation I find on kepub doesn't exist on the Nook...
They don't exist on the Kobo either, with epubs. Still, the epub layout on the Nook is even better than the epub layout on the Kobo. OTOH the Nook is slower.
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Old 06-15-2020, 06:42 PM   #33
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I guess I'm easy to please. My Nook with the smallest margins and line spacing works for me. Though Kobo has much more fine-tuning I rarely use it. My ereaders tend to be 'set it and forget it' deals and both Nook and Kobo do a good job. I just think Nook does a better job at layout than Kobo does. The big gaps and awkward hyphenation I find on kepub doesn't exist on the Nook.

Nook software still needs a lot of work, but to me they don't need to tinker with the reading experience too much.
I consider myself a set it and forget guy also. I don't really care about the library management as I'm not doing that very often. I'm not doing highlighting. I'm not spending much time using the dictionary. Or Wikipedia. ... It didn't matter to me about the book partition size kerfuffl. But I am reading a lot. So I don't want to settle for something that works, I want something that I can set to what I like.

I wish the Kobo stock setting had more choices. The patches are fantastic.

In the end, it is good to have competition and choices.
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Old 06-15-2020, 08:02 PM   #34
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And for library borrowing, Amazon only competes inside the USA. Outside the USA, borrowing a Kindle format book from a library is not supported.
Well, since Nook only competes inside the USA, it's all good then, right?

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Old 06-15-2020, 08:07 PM   #35
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For some reason, all the major ebook stores seem to have designed the experience for the summertime, on the beach, customer, i.e. someone who is never going to have more than a handful of books at a given time. Kobo is probably the best of the lot, but even they aren't all that great when it comes to managing a library. That's why I do most of my reading on my iPad where I can use Calibre Companion to manage my library, and just transfer the books I'm actively reading (or is in my next up list) to Marvin. I use my Kobo when I'm out in the sun or in a situation where battery life and weight are important (such as backpacking). I've owned most of the major readers - Sony, Kindle, Nook and Kobo.
My Sony Reader was great for supporting series. I now read on a Surface Pro. I have Calibre installed on my Surface Pro and can manage my collection directly.
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Old 06-15-2020, 09:03 PM   #36
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Already I'm not sure how much attention you've really paid. Say what you want about Nook software, their catalog, etc. If Nook has a high point, it is their hardware.
I have to agree. I do most of my reading on a phone these days but I have the new Paperwhite, an older Kobo and the Glowlight 3 and for simply reading a book the Glowlight 3 is far superior. It lacks a lot of features but not really ones I care about. It's also more difficult to use a lot of the features it does have. But that's peripheral stuff. There's a big difference in the contrast of the screen. It's comfortable to hold. I don't use the buttons much but they're there for those who want them.

Yes it has a lot of firmware problems but not anything that really matters to me and when you get right down to it the purpose of an ereader is reading and it does that superbly.

The perfect ereader would be a Nook Glowlight 3 that could access my Kindle library.

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Old 06-15-2020, 09:12 PM   #37
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That was exactly what I took "generic China, Inc" to mean. Can you show me where the 2015 Glowlight Plus, the Glowlight 3 or the current Glowlight Plus is an off the shelf hardware design?
I don't know how far back you go but in my time here I've seen dozens of companies come and go, hoping to build ebook businesses by that model, rebadging Hanlins and Netronixes and Booxes and what not, without any inhouse tech stuff. Without anything to makes them distinctly *theirs*. Some were quite good for the times, some even boasted features nobody else had. Most weren't.

None endured.

The survivors are the ones who control their own fate with more than checks to China or India. Who create tbeir own IP and are committed to more than making a quick buck.

The rest have never amounted to much because what tbey could buy was available to all.

B&N disbanded their tech staff years ago so until I see Daunt hiring new designers and coders I'll be skeptical Nook can be any more than it is today. He may say he will invest but I doubt anything he can afford will change anything.

We'll see soon enough.

Last edited by fjtorres; 06-15-2020 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 06-15-2020, 09:34 PM   #38
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Invest?
Great.
In what exactly?

They're behind the curve on everything: generic China Inc hardware, ...
What, exactly, do you think is more "generic" about Nooks than other eReaders? My view is the opposite. Nooks have page turn buttons on both sides of the bezel, and the best warm color screens I've seen. (And LEDs at the top of the screen instead of the bottom, which may not mean much, except it's definitely not "generic.")
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Old 06-15-2020, 09:43 PM   #39
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I'm not saying that I expect B&N, much less Nook, to do a similar turn around. But I do think your assumptions about Nook's doomed future don't add up to a whole lot.
B&N doesn't have to depend on current revenue to recover, they're now owned by a hedge fund (Elliot Management) with deep pockets. So it comes down to whether or not Elliot Management thinks it's worth investing in B&N. So far they seem to want to rebuild the brand, not break it up to sell the pieces. So, for now, it appears we won't lose B&N or Nook, at least not in the short term. For me that's good news. I don't want to lose one of the last B&M book stores and I like more (not less) eBook competition. We'll see how it plays out.
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Old 06-15-2020, 10:14 PM   #40
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I don't know how far back you go but in my time here I've seen dozens of companies come and go, hoping to build ebook businesses by that model, rebadging Hanlins and Netronixes and Booxes and what not, without any inhouse tech stuff.
Sorry man. I PROMISE I'm not being intentionally dense. But I still don't see where you are going here.

Are you implying that the the Nook is a rebranded Hanlin, Netronix or Boox? You've implied it three times based on nothing that I can see. The current batch of Nooks (the Glowlight 3 and the 7.8" Glowlight Plus have a different design from anything on the market.

Your repeated insinuation that these are just some rebranded Chinese readers makes me think you have no clue what you are talking about.

As for how far back I go, I worked at B&N when the first Nook rolled out and my first reader was the Nook ST with Glowlight. Nook has always had superior hardware design to their competitors.
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Old 06-15-2020, 11:55 PM   #41
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As for how far back I go, I worked at B&N when the first Nook rolled out and my first reader was the Nook ST with Glowlight. Nook has always had superior hardware design to their competitors.
Iím sorry but this isnít true. There was a significant lag for Nook to adopt the 300dpi screen which was old hat by the time they did in (I think) the glowlight plus. It was the Nook with the white textured bezel. Both Amazon and Kobo has at least one if not two lines of readers out with 300dpi by this time. BN was also very late to add water resistance (I wonít say water proof because even the Kobo H2O was never really water proof). They were late to add the orange LEDS (Iím not going to get into who does it better now since honestly itís going to be subjective). The glowlight plus had that awful capacitive touch home button which many people complained about and few if any praised.

Again Iím trying to stay with objective issues here. So Iím not touching things like the layout of the various readers, the size of the bezels, if they have buttons (exception for when the button is specifically called out as causing issues) to name a few. Yes Iím comparing different generations of devices against each other but BN opted not to release new hardware with those features. Iím even ignoring the larger screens offered by Kobo because size of the screen is a subjective quality. The other features mentioned have largely become standard now.

Iíll give that Nook were the first major brand to have the light at all. And that early on they outpaced Amazon or at least kept up. Kobo was outdistanced at this time with their clunkier design. But Nook has wavered and fallen behind at points. The glowlight 3 might be better hardware though from memory most if not all your praise of the hardware would fall into the subjective category.
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Old 06-16-2020, 02:16 AM   #42
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I’m sorry but this isn’t true. There was a significant lag for Nook to adopt the 300dpi screen which was old hat by the time they did in (I think) the glowlight plus. It was the Nook with the white textured bezel. Both Amazon and Kobo has at least one if not two lines of readers out with 300dpi by this time. BN was also very late to add water resistance (I won’t say water proof because even the Kobo H2O was never really water proof). They were late to add the orange LEDS (I’m not going to get into who does it better now since honestly it’s going to be subjective). The glowlight plus had that awful capacitive touch home button which many people complained about and few if any praised. ...
The only 300 dpi eReader out in 2014 was the Kindle Voyage, top of the line, components that are still not matched (and not in the same price range as a PW, Glowlight Plus or Kobo Glo HD or others mentioned here). Other than that, Nooks did not "significantly lag" behind others. The Paperwhite 3 came out June 30th, 2015 — the Nook Glowlight came out in October of that year (and, unlike the PW or Voyage, it was waterproof and had a nicer screen than the PW3). The first 300 dpi Kobo was the Kobo Glo HD, which came out May, 2015. I think the first PocketBook 300 dpi reader came out in 2016. The Tolino Shine 2 HD and Vision 3 HD (also waterproof) came out in, October 2015 — about a week later than the Nook Glowlight Plus. E-Carta (4th generation, 300 dpi) wasn't announced until the end of 2013, Voyage used it first, for a premium, in 2014. Nobody else used it until 2015, including B&N for their Nook.

The first waterproof Kindle came out in Oct, 2017 (significant lag) and the first "warm light" Kindle came out in May, 2019 (also a significant lag). And these were like the Voyage, expensive readers. Meanwhile the first "warm light Nook came out in November 2017. Kobo's H2O came out in October, 2014 (a big jump over everyone else, like the 300 dpi screen jump by the Voyage). But there's still no lower-end, water resistant Kobo. And the water resistant PW4 just came out in March, 2019, nearly a four year lag behind the Nook Glowlight Plus.

But if you want to talk about feature lag... compare the PocketBook HD3 to all others. It's water resistant, has a 300 dpi (warm light) screen. Has page turn buttons (the touch screen can be disabled). Can borrow or buy directly from any ePub store or library (via on-device Adobe ADE and the ability to download books from ASCM files or by using it's built-in browser — this includes Kobo, Google Books and any bookstore besides Nook). Can play MP3s, can read books to you (TTS). Has a dual-core CPU, 16 GBs of storage standard. Has games (Klondike, Chess, Sudku), can receive books via Send to PocketBook, supports DropBox integration, and includes 5 GBs of cloud storage on PocketBook's website (this enables syncing across devices). And it weighs ten grams less than Kobo Clara or Tolino Shine 3.

My point? All eReaders improve when the underlying technology improves. One company emphasizes one feature over another, while another company will do the opposite. Nook development does not "significantly lag" when compared to the others (I think they have the best "warm light" screens made) and page turn buttons on both sides of the bezel. Nook just comes out with fewer devices. But when their new device does get released it incorporates the newest component developments.
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Old 06-16-2020, 09:42 AM   #43
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Voyage used it first, for a premium, in 2014. Nobody else used it until 2015, including B&N for their Nook.

You start by saying there was no lag, then demonstrate there was lag, and qualify it by using price point differences.

BN had no premium reader, thus the hardware specs for their premium reader are does not exist. Which means their hardware offerings were behind those of their competitors of Kobo and Amazon.

Since we weren't comparing it on a device to device offering, but hardware overall.
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Old 06-16-2020, 10:49 AM   #44
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Sorry man. I PROMISE I'm not being intentionally dense. But I still don't see where you are going here.

Are you implying that the the Nook is a rebranded Hanlin, Netronix or Boox? You've implied it three times based on nothing that I can see. .
Not literally.
But something like that.
Are you familiar with how companies get their gizmos to sell?

I'll try to simplify, just in case:

At the top of the involvement spectrum you have inhouse development/outsourced manufacturing. Sony and MS are doing this for their new consoles. MS has a large team of engineers and coders that has been working with partners to design the critical components since 2016. They defined the features and capabilities of the components, the power of the cooling fan, the path of airflow, everything. Four years designing, testing, revising. And half an hour designing the case.
They then pass the designs to their manufacturing partners in Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, China, etc.
It's their product all the way. They control it.

A notch below this, is the ODM market: involvement here runs different levels but as a rule the marketing guys list the features and traits they want, the money guys specify a per unit pricing range, and the tech guys on both sides iterate an exclusive design. The inhouse guys evaluate how the features will be implemented and what tradeoffs are needed, what pitfalls might come. Like, if weight matters, just how thick can the plastic be vs the size and weight of the battery. Or if a charger is included, how big, fast, and expensive can it be. Your techies make sure you get a design that is competitive and runs your software well. This looks to be where Kobo lives. It's their software and it's their name on the box and they (and Netronix, their ODM) consistently put out solid competitive products.

Thing is, not all ODM partners are equally good and not all clients get the same attention. Big clients buying lots of units, by the million, get a lot of say; outfits buying a single small lot get less.

Near the bottom, there are the OEM deals. The client there gets an existing design and *might* get different color plastic plus the silk-screened logo. If you stop by the "electronics" section of a pharmacy you might find alarm clocks, DVD players, maybe tablets with brands like Emerson, Craig, Sonic, or something else that look suspiciously alike. Take them apart and you'll find the same design housed in different plastic.

Years ago, a british outfit called Interead proudly announced the Cool-er reader. Cheap for the time and in a rainbow of colors. They latter anounced they'd sold 25,000. A big achievement for the time, when Sony sold maybe 100,000 a year.

https://gizmodo.com/cool-er-ebook-reader-review-5271551

A couple months later, they were gone. Total life from intro to bankruptcy, one year.

Plastic aside, that design was all over in 2008/2009 under a half dozen names, all with the exact same features. They company brought nothing to the table than anybody else. And as the market moved on past the first Kindle, customers moved on.

At the lowest level, there are the co-branding deals like when B&N signed up to sell a million Samsung Android tablets with the Nook reader app preinstalled. (No need to revisit how "well" that worked out, right?)

So, where does Nook stand?
With all tech stuff outsourced they're most likely OEMing a pre-existent design. Every years there's a couple dozen asian designs that never make it west so theirs no quick way of telling, if they're rebadging a design or not. But since they're not exactly cutting edge hardware the odds of it being a custom job like the first Nooks is very low.

This doesn't mean the hadware is bad.
But when you look at Nook financials (under $100M a year for both hardware and books) it's clear the hardware (tablet and readers running $120-180) aren't moving even Cool-er volumes, in a mjch bigger market. Their total hardware sales run around $40-45M. For three separate designs, three contracts, three production runs. How's that look? 30-40,000 units? Maybe 10,000 each? Around $10M each contract? $20M.

For that an ODM that is decent enough money but not a contract you bend over backwards for.

If B&N gets lucky and sign up good OEMs they may not miss the tech staff they fired. But they might also get poor quality control, preinstalled malware, exploding power supplies.

Control is vital to protecting your brand and customer base.
Nook hasn't and they now have a big hole to dig out of.
And I don't think relying on getting lucky with low five figure deals is something you can rely on. Its not just fraders that Nook barely registers with. If tbey were standalone, they'd be bafely above kickstarter levels for OEM/ODMs.

And I wouldn't be counting on their new owners having "deep pockets" being of much help. Ask Kobo home much support they get from Rakuten's "deep pockets". Considering how little previous management invested in Nook, saying they'll do more is a long way from "a lot".

The investors might also see the whole deal differently today than a year ago. Their top priority has to be stemming the B&M bleeding and rebuilding the minimum wage staffs they fired. Because their strategy has always been pump and dump. Rework B&N enough to report a small profit and IPO it and Watersones as a combo. And in that combo,Nook is an even worse fit than with B&N alone.

Odds are still with Nook staying a zombie for a couple years before moving it or closing it. It's not as if $50m a year of ebooks is going to missed much.

Remember "too big to fail"?
There's also "too small to suvive".

Last edited by fjtorres; 06-16-2020 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 06-16-2020, 01:25 PM   #45
rcentros
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Originally Posted by MGlitch View Post
You start by saying there was no lag, then demonstrate there was lag, and qualify it by using price point differences.
If you're comparing the Voyage's 300 dpi screen against everybody else, everybody had "significant" lag. Not that significant, though. To single out Nook here is just absurd. Of course, if you're talking about water resistance or warm light, Amazon had significant lag at any price point. Again, there are fewer Nook models made. When they were released, they came out with the newer technology. If you single out Nook, you have to show that they lagged against everyone, not just against Kindles in one category.
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