N.Y. Times Article on Book Piracy - Page 4

Sonist · 05-12-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phenomshel

... If I can get a book through legitimate means and it is priced decently, I'd MUCH rather buy it than go to the trouble of tracking it down illegally....

Duh... :-)

Price + Availability + Ease of Use = More Sales + Less Piracy

Except, that currently, most publishers are still pricing e-books close to p-books (way too high, IMO) availability of titles is not where it ought to be, and DRM makes it way too cumbersome for the average user (try purchasing a title for your Kindle from a vendor other than Amazon, or dealing with DRM-ed .mobi on your Mac - it's actually easier to pirate....)

Shaggy · 05-12-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

Of course it doesn't have anything to do with readers. That's why they're offering files in a format that can be read on multiple readers, like ePub, instead of a locked-in format like the kindle has. Oh, wait...

Yep. Amazon is offering discounted ebooks in a DRM format that is locked down to only work on their hardware. That isn't a coincidence.

I'm sure it's partially to give publishers the impression that their content is secure (even though we all know DRM is basically useless for preventing piracry), but Amazon is also doing it to serve their own interests.

ClintBrauer · 05-12-2009, 01:41 PM

Well...my guess is their view is to get the most popular titles with the highest volume sales converted first.

Then...in a world of limited resources, they can only "convert" so many titles a day.

Here are the costs to conversion:

1.) First off you must have the meta-data arranged properly. If it's anything like what I experienced in music, it's a very challenging process. Yes you can throw people at it....but the data validation process is critical and requires custom software to fit the specific publisher situation.

2.) The conversion itself - Even if the source file is in PDF (which many are), then if you have anything beyond a single column with limited graphics to convert...it gets extremely time consuming and expensive. A few years ago the average for conversion was around $140 which since then is less than half of that for a single column "trade" book.

3.) Rights - Music business didn't even know what rights they had for a lot of their materials. It was on paper and not indexed. And given the control freak nature of those in the legal business (for good reason), it took a lot of time to "discover" what rights they had.

Then if they didn't have the rights...then they must enter into negotiations to secure them. Of course this is often adversarial so it takes time.

I agree with you is that the cost argument can only be taken so far. At the end of the day you either are willing to invest in a business or you are not.

If you are not, time to get out of that business or someone is going to take it away from you. (either pirates, competitors or your investors)

Greg Anos · 05-12-2009, 01:44 PM

Hear! Hear!

Sonist · 05-12-2009, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClintBrauer

... 2.) The conversion itself - Even if the source file is in PDF (which many are), then if you have anything beyond a single column with limited graphics to convert...it gets extremely time consuming and expensive. A few years ago the average for conversion was around $140 which since then is less than half of that for a single column "trade" book....

Kind of a modest investment, considering that the publishers can keep selling the resulting file for years to come.

Xenophon · 05-12-2009, 01:58 PM

@Clint:

Please confirm that you are well aware of Baen's business model for eBooks, and also well aware of how successfull it's been for them. If yes, what are you doing to position your business for similar success (public info only, of course)? If no, go learn...

Xenophon

sirbruce · 05-12-2009, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phenomshel

Clint, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm just not seeing the "growing extremely quickly" that you refer to in your post.

Amazon alone is growing at over 500 ebooks a day, which you can follow in this thread:
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...=16469&page=10

That's pretty quick, though perhaps not as quickly as one would like. Certainly a lot of those are self-published as well, but that represents 1.5% of the number of physical books in Amazon's listings. Many of those pbooks are out of print; on the other hand, many of those ebooks only exist in ebook form.

phenomshel · 05-12-2009, 02:11 PM

Ok, well I'm notoriously short on patience, and I probably should have said "I'm not seeing the growth in my reading preferences" - which, admittedly, are a little off the beaten path. But I still maintain that it could be a lot faster.

tompe · 05-12-2009, 02:15 PM

The cost of conversion can be reduced it the publishers starts with pirated versions that often have a very high quality.

DaleDe · 05-12-2009, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenophon

@Clint:

Please confirm that you are well aware of Baen's business model for eBooks, and also well aware of how successfull it's been for them. If yes, what are you doing to position your business for similar success (public info only, of course)? If no, go learn...

Xenophon

Are you suggesting that Baen's business model is more successful than Amazon's business model? If so, where is your data?

Dale

ClintBrauer · 05-12-2009, 02:23 PM

I don't disagree that things are moving too slow.

The main issue is that the investment should have started long ago. But just a few years ago I had to "persuade" some publishers that costs could be lowered if they each committed to a meaningful volume.

That should have never been the case. But just like much of the large companies out there...people make a living by reacting.

If Baen's model is working for them...then that's great. I'm not sure that any one model will be the "best" for a long time to come.

Elfwreck · 05-12-2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Are you suggesting that Baen's business model is more successful than Amazon's business model? If so, where is your data?

Dale

Baen is a publishing house. Amazon is a distributor. The relative "success" of their models (measured in what? Dollars? Percent of market? Customer satisfaction & loyalty?) is not directly comparable; they're focused on different goals.

Amazon is expecting someone else to produce goods, and they mark them up & send 'em along to customers. Baen produces goods, and has decided to cut Amazon (and others like it) out of the loop.

Publishing houses don't have the option of modeling their businesses after Amazon. Nor after Fictionwise. They could model their website after either, but that's not the same at all.

brecklundin · 05-12-2009, 05:18 PM

has anyone mentioned what affect the loss of so many small booksellers around the US has had on total sales? I know here where I live we once had four stores selling new books and two used book stores. Now we have just one used book store. If people want a book w/o a 50-90mi r/t drive they must settle for Longs Drugs or Walmart. I suppose Vons Grocery store also has a selection of trash novels as well.

So that leaves online for people who want new.

Something else that is worth looking at are even though books are out there on darknet, the only device people have to read them on are the supposedly hard to read on LCD/CRT based displays or PDA's. It's not like there have been enough Sony (& a couple other brands) readers sold to let people read PDF's in a reasonable fashion on a handheld device.

I'm not saying darknet is right, it's not, it's theft, but at the same time I do not believe it has near the effect publishers and some authors claim. I sense what they are really worried about is that they are in no way prepared for the sea change in reading that is going to accelerate over the next couple years.

igorsk · 05-12-2009, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Amazon is expecting someone else to produce goods, and they mark them up & send 'em along to customers. Baen produces goods, and has decided to cut Amazon (and others like it) out of the loop.

Actually Fictionwise carries some Baen books, though I'm not sure if that's from Baen themselves or individual authors (since Baen's ebook contracts are non-exclusive). Interestingly, I found this old PR:
http://www.baen.com/press.htm#Fictionwise

Quote:

Top Selling eBooks of 2002:
1. The Vor Game by Lois McMaster Bujold
2. The Shiva Option by David Weber
3. The Warrior's Apprentice by Lois McMaster Bujold
4. Shards of Honor by Lois McMaster Bujold
5. The Borders of Infinity by Lois McMaster Bujold
6. Robot Visions by Isaac Asimov
7. The Dream [First in the Dream Series] by Isaac Asimov
8. Robot Dreams by Isaac Asimov
9. Spaceships by Michael A. Burstein
10. Falling Free by Lois McMaster Bujold

GlennD · 05-12-2009, 07:47 PM

I think for a lot of the books that people are worried about, the used market is really key to look at. Ursula K. LeGuin was concerned about her books all being freely available on the darknet.....but I can also find most of her books at any decent sized used book store for less than a buck.

Sure, I'd like to have an e-book copy of the "Left Hand of Darkness". When a person's reading choices are to get one free at a library, pay $1 at a used book store for a physical copy, $10 for a new physical copy, free for a (probably poorly scanned/formatted) ebook on darknet, or $7.99 for an approved well-scanned ebook it can be a tough call. Even assuming one discards the illegal and immoral darknet option, ebook prices have to be competitive with the other options. Backlist books in particular need to be reasonably priced to get buyers.

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05-12-2009, 01:41 PM	#48
ClintBrauer Enthusiast Posts: 43 Karma: 240 Join Date: Oct 2008 Device: Readius	Well...my guess is their view is to get the most popular titles with the highest volume sales converted first. Then...in a world of limited resources, they can only "convert" so many titles a day. Here are the costs to conversion: 1.) First off you must have the meta-data arranged properly. If it's anything like what I experienced in music, it's a very challenging process. Yes you can throw people at it....but the data validation process is critical and requires custom software to fit the specific publisher situation. 2.) The conversion itself - Even if the source file is in PDF (which many are), then if you have anything beyond a single column with limited graphics to convert...it gets extremely time consuming and expensive. A few years ago the average for conversion was around $140 which since then is less than half of that for a single column "trade" book. 3.) Rights - Music business didn't even know what rights they had for a lot of their materials. It was on paper and not indexed. And given the control freak nature of those in the legal business (for good reason), it took a lot of time to "discover" what rights they had. Then if they didn't have the rights...then they must enter into negotiations to secure them. Of course this is often adversarial so it takes time. I agree with you is that the cost argument can only be taken so far. At the end of the day you either are willing to invest in a business or you are not. If you are not, time to get out of that business or someone is going to take it away from you. (either pirates, competitors or your investors)

05-12-2009, 01:44 PM	#49
Greg Anos Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,248 Karma: 35000000 Join Date: Jan 2008 Device: Pocketbook	Hear! Hear!

05-12-2009, 01:58 PM	#51
Xenophon curmudgeon Posts: 1,481 Karma: 5748190 Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Redwood City, CA USA Device: Kobo Aura HD, (ex)nook, (ex)PRS-700, (ex)PRS-500	@Clint: Please confirm that you are well aware of Baen's business model for eBooks, and also well aware of how successfull it's been for them. If yes, what are you doing to position your business for similar success (public info only, of course)? If no, go learn... Xenophon

05-12-2009, 02:11 PM	#53
phenomshel ZCD BombShel Posts: 4,793 Karma: 8293322 Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: The Frozen North (aka Illinois, USA) Device: iPad, STB Kindle Oasis	Ok, well I'm notoriously short on patience, and I probably should have said "I'm not seeing the growth in my reading preferences" - which, admittedly, are a little off the beaten path. But I still maintain that it could be a lot faster.

05-12-2009, 02:15 PM	#54
tompe Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,452 Karma: 7185064 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Linköpng, Sweden Device: Kindle Voyage, Nexus 5, Kindle PW	The cost of conversion can be reduced it the publishers starts with pirated versions that often have a very high quality.

05-12-2009, 02:23 PM	#56
ClintBrauer Enthusiast Posts: 43 Karma: 240 Join Date: Oct 2008 Device: Readius	I don't disagree that things are moving too slow. The main issue is that the investment should have started long ago. But just a few years ago I had to "persuade" some publishers that costs could be lowered if they each committed to a meaningful volume. That should have never been the case. But just like much of the large companies out there...people make a living by reacting. If Baen's model is working for them...then that's great. I'm not sure that any one model will be the "best" for a long time to come.

05-12-2009, 05:18 PM	#58
brecklundin Banned Posts: 1,906 Karma: 15348 Join Date: Jun 2007 Device: mine	has anyone mentioned what affect the loss of so many small booksellers around the US has had on total sales? I know here where I live we once had four stores selling new books and two used book stores. Now we have just one used book store. If people want a book w/o a 50-90mi r/t drive they must settle for Longs Drugs or Walmart. I suppose Vons Grocery store also has a selection of trash novels as well. So that leaves online for people who want new. Something else that is worth looking at are even though books are out there on darknet, the only device people have to read them on are the supposedly hard to read on LCD/CRT based displays or PDA's. It's not like there have been enough Sony (& a couple other brands) readers sold to let people read PDF's in a reasonable fashion on a handheld device. I'm not saying darknet is right, it's not, it's theft, but at the same time I do not believe it has near the effect publishers and some authors claim. I sense what they are really worried about is that they are in no way prepared for the sea change in reading that is going to accelerate over the next couple years.

05-12-2009, 07:47 PM	#60
GlennD Wizard Posts: 2,101 Karma: 17249026 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: The Pacific NW Device: sony PRS350, iPhone, iPad	I think for a lot of the books that people are worried about, the used market is really key to look at. Ursula K. LeGuin was concerned about her books all being freely available on the darknet.....but I can also find most of her books at any decent sized used book store for less than a buck. Sure, I'd like to have an e-book copy of the "Left Hand of Darkness". When a person's reading choices are to get one free at a library, pay $1 at a used book store for a physical copy, $10 for a new physical copy, free for a (probably poorly scanned/formatted) ebook on darknet, or $7.99 for an approved well-scanned ebook it can be a tough call. Even assuming one discards the illegal and immoral darknet option, ebook prices have to be competitive with the other options. Backlist books in particular need to be reasonably priced to get buyers.

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