02-21-2017, 12:37 PM | #46 | ||||
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@jackie_w & @BetterRed ''Maybe one day ...'' it will be more perfect!? |
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02-21-2017, 01:12 PM | #47 | |
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02-21-2017, 01:31 PM | #48 |
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That <i> or <em> & <b> or <strong> etc. debate could be widely extended: e.g. to use class attributes to describe semantics:
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<p>There is a certain <i class="foreignphrase" lang="fr">je ne sais quoi</i> in the air.</p> Last edited by chaot; 02-22-2017 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Informative links!→[COLOR="Red"]Informative links![/COLOR] |
02-21-2017, 04:26 PM | #49 |
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Someone please show me a real world example where<i> & <em> and <b> & <strong> are different. I've seen lots of eBooks that use <em> & <strong> and they are used just the same as you would use <i> & <b>.
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02-21-2017, 05:16 PM | #50 | |
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02-21-2017, 08:07 PM | #51 | |||
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02-21-2017, 08:18 PM | #52 | |||||
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_accessibility https://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/accessibility.php or there are plenty of more friendly articles (but broad and nowhere near as detailed, or only focus on tackling one small portion [blind]): https://transitscreen.com/blog/acces...-vision-users/ I definitely know I have written about this stuff in various places over the years... I would just have to go hunt down those posts/emails. :P Side Note: I personally point back to this video, "Ron McCallum: How technology allowed me to read": https://www.ted.com/talks/ron_mccall..._read#t-608240 I would say that is probably one of the videos that gave myself a kick in the butt to focus on Web Accessibility. :P - - - - - Let me just bring up a few of the latest related ebook topics off the top of my head, and you may be able to draw some parallels: 1. "Stupid Amazon Read Inside is making my book look hideous. Let me just change my <h1-6> to <p class="heading">. I mean... it LOOKS the same and ACTS the same. What's the problem?" If you properly have your document marked up using headings, someone on a Screen Reader could use easily jump around the document... not so with <p> tags. Side Note: I am also surprised that BetterRed hasn't said anything about reading books with keyboard shortcuts... he is CONSTANTLY pointing out programs that don't fit his "never-let-my-fingers-get-off-the-keyboard" mentality. There are also several benefits which may not be immediately apparent: For example, Sigil's TOC Generation, Toxaris's Tools to import the EPUB->DOCX and automatically have a navigable DOCX, Calibre (and who knows what other future converters/tools there might be), [...]. That is one of my personal motivations for properly marked up documents, the tools/programs help me speed up my workflow. 2. That age-old "debate" of HTML Tables or images of tables (here is just one of the threads): https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=223062 I am all for HTML Tables... one of the reasons is better accessibility. 3. Marking up HTML with proper lang attributes (here is one of the latest threads where an author brought up an example): https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...57#post3465457 JSWolf thought it was absolute hogwash... but there are also benefits to using it NOW. For example, very recently Calibre added Multi-Language Spellchecking (VERY HELPFUL). Or a word processor (Microsoft Word) might also take it into account so you don't get all those red squigglies! In the now -> near-future, support of CSS hyphens will become better: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/...eb/CSS/hyphens (For example, for decades LaTeX has already had actual proper Hyphenation for most popular languages. Web Browsers are WAY behind on this topic.) In probably the far future, Text-to-Speech might take into speaking in different languages, so you can have a book mixed with English/Spanish and be read with the proper voices. (I am not too sure of any current ereader that does this.) There is also the new EPUB+CSS3 speech stuff too: https://www.w3.org/TR/css3-speech/ https://idpf.github.io/a11y-guidelin...ts/speech.html And in the here-and-now, there are Search Engines which use lang information (Google.fr prioritizes French websites, while Google.de prioritizes German websites). I don't see why this couldn't be expanded to enhance search inside EPUBs. Side Note: I would probably say the <em> <-> <i> is very nuanced and may not be as high a priority as some of those other things... but that doesn't mean you could toss it to the side. I would say the more popular CSS3 speech becomes, the more this distinction will become important (and more people thinking about it when creating documents). :P Side Note #2: As a semi-related example, I was also recently complaining about many websites becoming WAY too Javascript-heavy (I personally use Firefox+NoScript). Many web designers would just design the site to look pretty, and never take into account, "Hmmm, what if someone visits without all my fancy Javascript?" Many news websites which refuse to load because they use Javascript to load the entire articles... or they cut the article and force you to push on a button to "See More" (Javascript). Or simple websites that just completely explode when there is no Javascript. Or forums where you can't advance throughout the next page in a topic. I want to smash these websites in the face with a hammer! Quote:
Let me just commandeer the example of "alternate voice" from the HTML5Doctor link, with one minor tweak: Quote:
2. In Non-Fiction, let us say you are citing a book. The Book Title may be italics: Quote:
3. Let us say you were discussing a great author: Quote:
4. In Mathematics, Bold and Italics is used heavily. Take for example, the constant e. It would make zero sense to have the code for the constant be: <em>e</em>. There are also plenty of variables that are bold, for example, vectors in Physics. (There are also examples of Text-to-Speech Math... that is a whole other complicated can of worms though and requires properly marked material.) Side Note: On a semi-related note to this, there was also massive discussion when adding all of the different variants of maths symbols to Unicode + OpenType Math: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathem..._Symbols_block There are ~15 different variants of Maths symbols (Mixes of Serif/Sans/Typewriter/Double-struck/Script/Fraktur + Upright/Italic + Normal/Bold). Why was it introduced into Unicode itself? Text-to-Speech was one of the large motivations (amongst many others). A = 𝐀 = 𝐴 = 𝑨 = 𝒜 = 𝓐 = 𝔄 = 𝔸 = 𝕬 = 𝖠 = 𝗔 = 𝘈 = 𝘼 = 𝙰? Last edited by Tex2002ans; 02-21-2017 at 09:28 PM. |
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02-21-2017, 09:25 PM | #53 | |||
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I would have course have the name of Cousin Esmeralda's restaurant tagged as French, but I wouldn't want Griselda pronouncing it like a Parisian, instead I would expect her to say it as a 1960's Sloane Ranger would have done. Time is another factor to be considered... BR Last edited by BetterRed; 02-21-2017 at 09:40 PM. |
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02-21-2017, 09:51 PM | #54 | ||
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https://www.iana.org/assignments/lan...ubtag-registry And here is the rule for subtags: language-extlang-script-region-variant-extension-privateuse https://www.w3.org/International/art...-tags/index.en I suspect you COULD go down the rabbit hole, but I doubt many tools currently support anything beyond the first main language. (Although Search Engines would definitely benefit.) Side Note: Or take LaTeX English Hyphenation as an example, there are the two major ones (US/UK), but there are also very minor hyphenation variations you can specify: Canadian, Australian, New Zealand. The differences between these variants are extremely minor (maybe a handful of words), but that doesn't mean the gap won't grow in the future. Quote:
On Android they currently do have a few variants of English though (and a few have Male/Female):
or Spanish:
Maybe the linguists will get around to creating those algorithms some time in the future, and then our 5 layer deep langs can be spoken properly! Last edited by Tex2002ans; 02-21-2017 at 10:10 PM. |
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02-21-2017, 10:59 PM | #55 |
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@jswolfe --- not a real-world example in the sense you mean, but I have created experimental projects where I set the <em> to be Large Red font, instead of *italic, and <strong> to Large BLUE font instead of *bold*.
As chaot and BetterRed noted about semantics earlier in the thread, I have started using <i> and <b> for things such as foreign language, book titles, and such. Then I want the <em> and <strong> when showing, for example, someone shouting their dialog. This is really more for ease of editing the code, rather than concern about TTS, although that does enter into it a bit (can't hurt, might help). Last edited by GrannyGrump; 02-21-2017 at 11:03 PM. |
02-21-2017, 11:01 PM | #56 |
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@Tex2002ans - A properly trained voice can project as a male, female, old, young, or foreign whether it be a male or female. I saw three young women do Copenhagen a couple of years ago, just as good maybe better than first time I saw it, and certainly better than the Cumberbatch, Scacchi, and I forget who TV movie. Many years ago I saw two women do an excellent Godot - one might have been Judy Davis, or maybe it was Scaachi, but not Blanchette - too long ago.
TTS Book reading should sound like its being read by a single person, one with the ability to adopt subtly different voices both in the narrative and dialogue. If you were to start using entirely different voices you would end up with a play with lot's of narration - it won't work. BR |
02-22-2017, 12:51 AM | #57 | |||
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Here is another one of the Accessibility articles I enjoyed:
http://webaim.org/articles/visual/ I forgot to link it in a previous post. :P My favorite part is right in the beginning: Quote:
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For example, if you are typing LaTeX using emacs+AUCTeX, it could look very colorful: https://i.stack.imgur.com/YcNY2.png http://www.blackhats.es/wordpress/wp...le.pdf_002.png or even allow you to render Math inline: https://www.gnu.org/software/auctex/...h-rendered.png LyX is a WYSIWYM editor for LaTeX, and it can do similar: http://www.lyx.org/images/about/main_window.png Calibre's Editor currently displays words between <i>+<em> as an italic font and <b>+<strong> as a bold font... I see no reason why there couldn't be more colors/fonts/font-sizes/highlights or more complex differentiation at a future date. Quote:
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Juliet. Good even to my ghostly confessor. Friar. Romeo shall thank thee, daughter, for us both. Juliet. As much to him, else is his thanks too much. Romeo. Ah, Juliet, if the measure of thy joy Be heap'd like mine, and that thy skill be more To blazon it, then sweeten with thy breath This neighbour air, and let rich music's tongue Unfold the imagin'd happiness that both Receive in either by this dear encounter. I didn't really consider your typical Fiction with narrative interspersed between dialog. I could see how the TTS might be very strange flipping between: Code:
[Female Voice] "Oh no," [Narrator] she said, [Female Voice] "what happened to your face?" [Narrator] Joe put his hand up to his cheek. [Male Voice] "I... I-I fell." [Narrator] He chuckled as he stared at the ground. But different TTS voices could be used if you had entire chapters written by different POV characters (like in A Song of Ice and Fire [italics], each chapter is written by a different main character). You could then have Chapter 1 (Male), Chapter 2 (Female), [...]. Last edited by Tex2002ans; 02-22-2017 at 01:02 AM. |
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02-22-2017, 05:58 AM | #58 | |
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BR |
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02-22-2017, 09:41 AM | #59 | |
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02-22-2017, 12:53 PM | #60 | |
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There is no question about what we can do. What we should do, that's the question. To get to the heart of the issue: To create a total mess we could make <i> looking bold and <b> looking italic - via CSS. Plus - there is oblique. Depending the font it can look different to italic. |
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