A curiosity: <ol start="7"> not valid in epub 2.0.1?

[Simons Mith]

I was using epubcheck, and it's validating an epub of mine to version 2.0.1

I'm getting an error as follows:
ERROR(RSC-005): ebook.epub/OPS/xhtml/chapter10.xhtml(234,15): Error while parsing file: attribute "start" not allowed here; expected attribute "class", "dir", "id", "lang", "style", "title" or "xml:lang"

The culprit is an <ol> tag which resumes from an earlier section so needs to start counting from 7. I'd prefer my book to validate correctly, but I wonder if this might be an oversight in the validator. Is epubcheck correct in telling me that 2.0.1 era epubs are not capable of using custom list numbering? None of the various ebook readers I've tried (including Calibre) appear upset by the glitch, and I'm wondering if it even IS an error.

IIRC somewhere on the IDPF pages there was a list of what tags/attributes are permissible in which epub version, but of course I can't find it right now

[Karellen]

Maybe you can post a snippet of the code for us to look at.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Simons Mith

I was using epubcheck, and it's validating an epub of mine to version 2.0.1

I'm getting an error as follows:
ERROR(RSC-005): ebook.epub/OPS/xhtml/chapter10.xhtml(234,15): Error while parsing file: attribute "start" not allowed here; expected attribute "class", "dir", "id", "lang", "style", "title" or "xml:lang"

The culprit is an <ol> tag which resumes from an earlier section so needs to start counting from 7. I'd prefer my book to validate correctly, but I wonder if this might be an oversight in the validator. Is epubcheck correct in telling me that 2.0.1 era epubs are not capable of using custom list numbering? None of the various ebook readers I've tried (including Calibre) appear upset by the glitch, and I'm wondering if it even IS an error.

IIRC somewhere on the IDPF pages there was a list of what tags/attributes are permissible in which epub version, but of course I can't find it right now

Yes, that's correct about ePub 2. You can try ePub 3 and see what happens.

[Quoth]

Also don't use automatic numbers of any kind in lists. Just use an un-numbered list and insert desired number/style at the start of each list item. Automatic numbering or bullets or anything other than indented list doesn't work in every ereader or app anyway. The manual approach always works. It's just you have to renumber if you later add an item in the middle.

Auto list numbering, auto section numbering and auto chapter numbering are just a convenience best avoided either in source Wordprocessor or HTML editors.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Karellen

Maybe you can post a snippet of the code for us to look at.

Nah, unneeded if this is ePUB2. Isn't and hasn't been supported since the jump. Can't restart a list (with a starting # other than 1, that is) successfully, to the best of my knowledge.

Hitch

[Jellby]

... meaning it might be supported by some reader, but it's not in the required set for ePub2 (and it's probably illegal in XHTML), so you can't rely on it.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Nah, unneeded if this is ePUB2. Isn't and hasn't been supported since the jump. Can't restart a list (with a starting # other than 1, that is) successfully, to the best of my knowledge.

Yep, for more detailed discussion on <ol> and why you should avoid it in ebooks, see:

• 2020: "EPUB-Checker error: undefined property"
• 2019: "EPub open in Sigil, split document, bullet list questions"
• 2016: "Epub3 Foot- End-notes"
  
  • (Especially my Posts #39+.)

Much better to change this:

<ol start="7">This is an example.</ol>

and "bake the number" into the paragraph itself:

<p class="list">7. This is an example.</p>

This will make sure any device will be displaying it correctly.

Sad that that's the reality (because it stinks for Accessibility), but that's the only way to:

• reliably handle non-starting-from-1 lists.
• appear the same on all devices.
• handle complicated numbering + symbol schemes.
  
  • Like Roman Numerals, Greek Letters, Indic, etc.

Originally Posted by Jellby

... meaning it might be supported by some reader, but it's not in the required set for ePub2 (and it's probably illegal in XHTML), so you can't rely on it.

And, in EPUB3 and HTML5+CSS3, you can do a lot more stuff... but again, many devices won't show this, so you have to settle for least common denominator.

If you were making a website though... yes, you could use lots of fancy <ol> + list-style-type + CSS3 Counters code.

But since we're doing ebooks, we most likely have to settle for hardcoded numbers in the text!

[Simons Mith]

Well it's the middle of the night, and in this late caffeine fugue I've stumbled a hideous hack that seems to work. Code snippet follows:

li.hidden {
visibility: hidden;
height: 0 }

and

<ol>
<li class="hidden">1</li>
<li class="hidden">2</li>
<li class="hidden">3</li>
<li>List item starting at 4, but works in EPUB 2!</li>
<li>Please don't hate me</li>
<li>Obviously if you want to start at 50 or something it sucks to be you</li>
<li>So, yuck</li>
</ol>

Feel free to say ewwww. On text to speech, I'd /hope/ it doesn't read out the hidden values, but I don't know.

This is definitely one of those case where I'm torn between doing it, because I can, and feeling guilty about how horrible it is

[Tex2002ans]

I stand by everything I said in October 2022. In that case, just hardcode your numbers.

[Karellen]

Originally Posted by Simons Mith

Feel free to say ewwww. On text to speech, I'd /hope/ it doesn't read out the hidden values, but I don't know.

Maybe try display:none; speak:none;

display :
Element is removed from the normal flow and hidden; the space it occupied is collapsed

visibility:
Element is hidden from view, but is not removed from the normal flow

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

I stand by everything I said in October 2022. In that case, just hardcode your numbers.

Agree totally.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

I stand by everything I said in October 2022. In that case, just hardcode your numbers.

Yep. The workarounds are more work than just styling your hard-coded numbers in p tags. And are likely to break under different conditions.

Not to mention that I've never understood how ol elements are all that useful in ebooks to begin with. Unless you're coding a website that generates lists from dynamic database data, your numbered lists are unlikely to ever change. So code them (lists) up once, style them, and be done with them.

[Sarmat89]

Lists are getting a nice hanging indent which is very hard to reproduce without it.

[DiapDealer]

Yes the hanging indents are very nice. But I'll choose "works everywhere" over "looks pretty" any day of the week.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

Lists are getting a nice hanging indent which is very hard to reproduce without it.

Simple with a suitable CSS