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07-21-2013, 02:48 AM | #16 |
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I don't have much to add to what's been said about the book. I rather liked it and feel myself educated ( ahem.., I thought I knew a much of the world at my age,but apparently not.....).
As an aside: it pained to me read of the insufficient medical care for these men. It appears to me that Mc Kenna wanted the story of Fanny and Stella to be the story of all Fanny's and Stella's of the Victorian period; be more than life like and therefore used the "Female" in his book, as stated on page 67 of his book: (quote) ‘the Female Dialect’ (or so Fanny, the fount of all wisdom on matters sodomitical, had informed Stella), and it was as old as time, or nearly so. It was a strange and secret language; an upside-down, inside-out sort of dialect where ‘she’ meant ‘he’, and ‘he’ meant ‘she’; where men were called by women’s names, where Frederick was Fanny, Ernest was Stella, Amos was Carlotta, and Cecil was Cecilia, or Sissy for short. Most of the men styled themselves just plain Miss and Mistress, but there was no shortage of those who liked to call themselves Lady This, the Countess of That or the Dowager Duchess of So and So. There was a positive glut of Princesses, and more Queens in the few square miles of London than there were kingdoms in the wide world for them to rule over. They were sisters. Side by side and shoulder to shoulder. Sisters for better or for worse. Sisters in sickness and in health. Sisters in drag and sisters out of drag. They made a formidable and fearless pair. London stood before them, waiting to be conquered, ready to fall at their feet in a swoon.'. (end quote) Last edited by desertblues; 07-22-2013 at 06:16 PM. |
07-22-2013, 08:01 AM | #17 | |||
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History of Syphilis. An aside to an aside. The first drug that was really at all effective in treatment was not developed until 1908. The famous American gangster Al Capone died in 1947 mentally deranged from the disease. Last edited by Hamlet53; 07-22-2013 at 08:10 AM. |
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07-24-2013, 09:33 PM | #18 | ||||
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I think it was confusing because it did create difficulties at times in discerning whether Fanny and Stella were appearing as men or women at a particular time, but after the first bit I got used to it and I respect that he might've been trying to honour what the two would've wanted to be referred as even if I didn't quite agree with his approach. Quote:
I never thought they might actually be hermaphrodites. I think the physical exams put that out of question (unless it was an "inside" physical sort of hermaphroditism, which I really don't know if that's possible or not). I just think it was a speculation from some people during the time and something the "he-shes" used to sometimes better explain themselves even though it wasn't really true for most of them. This is just my take-away on it from the reading. Quote:
As to the happiness of their lives, I find your thoughts interesting and would say I both agree and disagree with them. I was even thinking to myself before reading this thread that their lives did seem sad in a way even apart from the trial and legal matters, but I also think the story was so embellished by the author that the weight of our thoughts on the titular heroes really fall on him, and I think it may have a been a fault of his imagination or creativity (or talent) that he so wanted to put as much joy into their story as possible but instead couldn't help but imbuing it with a sort of melancholy. Of course he was up against a big task now knowing the broad stroke of their entire lives, but still I think he took on the challenge and didn't quite succeed. I think the fantasy of Stella "marrying" a nobleman could've "sort of" worked, if the legal system hadn't come after them. She had shacked up with a nobleman after all, and he had accepted that she was his "wife". If they hadn't encountered the legal troubles, I don't see it so far fetched that they could've lived that way for a good long while. While I see their lives as sad like you, I still think there's much we don't know about them and they didn't seem like the type especially prone to depression, and they certainly were courageous and had their share of fun and romance along the way, so Quote:
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08-06-2013, 07:46 AM | #19 |
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I'm a bit late to the discussion, having only recently finished the book, and doubt I have anything much to add to the discussion (I've not read any of the reviews yet, so as not to be influenced by other opinions), but here goes anyway...
I found the subject matter interesting, as it's not a world I knew much about, apart from the infamous Oscar Wilde case, so was looking forward to reading Fanny and Stella. I wasn't disappointed either, in terms of learning a lot more about the London gay scene in Victorian times. I was surprised at times by how brazen the men were, given that until recently sodomy had been a hanging offence, and was still effectively a life sentence if successfully convicted, given that ten years of hard labour was likely to kill most people. What I was disappointed about was the style in which it was written. I found McKenna's approach was less than scholarly, and often suspected he was embellishing (read "making it up") rather than relying on research and writings from the time. This was particularly true of the personal interactions between the key players. Fine if you want to write an acknowledged fictionalised version of true events, but not so for a book purporting to be historical fact. I also found the swapping between the he/she pronouns a bit distracting, and would rather McKenna had settled on one approach and stuck with it. I did find the parallels between their case and some more modern examples enlightening, in as much as even in the face of overwhelming evidence, they were acquitted (anyone remember OJ?) due to the mess the prosecution made of things, and the creativeness of the defence in spreading doubt and uncertainty. All in all, I'm glad I read it, and was glad to see justice done, even if ultimately it was sad that their ambitions were not fully realised. |
08-06-2013, 10:01 AM | #20 |
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Nice analysis Orlok.
This Youtube video is making the rounds. It's on HuffPo for example. I thought it just fit in with this thread. Depending on the Youtube rules in your location you may have to sign in to “prove” that you are old enough to view it [in Youtube's judgment]. Not to worry, there is really nothing one couldn't see out in the general media. |
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08-06-2013, 11:15 AM | #21 |
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^ if it hadn't been for the context, I would have been fooled .
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08-06-2013, 11:31 AM | #22 |
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Now I am catching up with everyone's reviews, you have reminded me of a point I had meant to raise but forgot about. I was constantly puzzled by Stella's mother's assumption and encouragements regarding Stella marrying a man. Surely she could not have expected this to happen in reality - if Stella was a man then he would never have been able to marry another man. Which does raise the question about why his mother would think otherwise? Maybe there is some mileage in the hermaphrodite theory?
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08-06-2013, 07:53 PM | #23 |
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Yes, that was curious.
On a very frivolous note, having just seen "Some Like It Hot" once again, at one stage when Jerry tells Joe that "Daphne" and Osgood the millionaire are engaged, Joe says "Why would a guy want to marry another guy?", to which Jerry replies "Security!" Interesting ad, Hamlet! |
08-07-2013, 09:14 AM | #24 | |
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08-07-2013, 09:16 AM | #25 | |
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08-07-2013, 10:02 AM | #26 | ||
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If anyone has never seen this, do rent or buy it for viewing. Quote:
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I interpret this to mean that Stella was definitely a man, and that Lord Arthur was also just a gay man. However, perhaps not? |
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08-07-2013, 10:20 AM | #27 | |
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08-07-2013, 10:22 AM | #28 | |
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That said, I still believe he was fully a man, or surely something would have been discovered during the medical examinations by six eminent physicians whilst in police custody. |
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08-07-2013, 10:27 AM | #29 |
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08-07-2013, 11:17 AM | #30 | |
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The individual concerned regarded herself as a woman and had no idea of the existence of the internal testes. In the end, she was allowed to keep her medals but I'm not sure what decision was made concerning future events. That is why I suggested the presence of internal female organs in Stella. They could not possibly be found by an external examination and the idea of checking hormone levels was probably beyond the medical expertise at the time. If Jack Saul's testimony is correct then Stella was not fully functional as a man--though McKenna seems to have his own doubts about its reliability. Stella's mother was evidently aware that her offspring had female characteristics and thought of herself as a woman. She obviously thought that there would be those who would accept Stella as such and would give her the freedom to exist in her preferred role. All this is pure speculation, of course. Last edited by fantasyfan; 08-07-2013 at 02:09 PM. |
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