It's so easy for me to lose perspective...

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by TechniSol

Some just do not like negativity and subscribe to the, "If you can't say anything nice..." policy. I suspect they must all be Canadians... (Hey, stop throwing the Molsen bottles, that was a compliment.

Eh? What was that? Please, tell me that they finished drinking their Molson Canadians before throwing the empty bottles at you.

Regards,
David

[david_e]

Originally Posted by aceflor

What is often happening and is infuriating me is the way others, always the same group of members btw, decide what is a bug, what is not, who is allowed to complain, who is not, how we should complain, how we should not. In German we have a verb for this : bevormunden. Sadly, there appears to be no exact translation in english.

I even read posts when some of these glorious members advised another not to complain directly to Kobo, since it would not accelerate anything and put too much unnecessary pressure on Kobo. So globally it was : do not complain here, you are bothering us. Do not complain to Kobo, you are bothering them. Logically, it comes in the end to : DO NOT COMPLAIN, IT IS PERFECT AS IT IS.

A new thread pops out that is critical ? There comes the cavalry.

Which makes me wonder, again, about what is the mission of these members, and what they are. Just private persons, members of MR, or do they have some other kind of relations to Kobo ? Because I have been at MR for years now, and am active on different boards of this forum, and I have never, never experienced group pressure at this level in any other boards. Not in the amazon board, nor in the sony, nor in the nook, nor in the pb one.

It is eerie...

How eerie can it be? You're still here.

I just think it is dumb and unproductive for people to come to a third party forum to make their complaints. If you have an issue, send the company an email. If you're unhappy with the response, or lack of response, then find a device that works for you. To sit around hoping and waiting for something to get fixed is ridiculous, especially when you're doing it in a manner with no guarantee of ever being heard.

I also feel that if someone buys a Kobo device, only to then discover it doesn't do what they thought / assumed it did, they're an idiot and I want nothing to do with them. I certainly don't want to read about it or the rest of their idiotic experience. They can stumble onto this place but they can't do a little pre-shopping research? Yeah, stay the #$%& away from me.

And so what if people with positive experiences want to share them? It's rather telling that you feel that those with only negative things should have their voices heard without question but anyone with a positive experience has some ulterior motive or 'mission'.

P.S.

oT ym oboK sdrolrevo, erehw si ym kcehc???

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Eh? What was that? Please, tell me that they finished drinking their Molson Canadians before throwing the empty bottles at you.

Regards,
David

Us Canadians take our bottles in for a refund, when we are not too busy watching hockey, drinking beer or pouring maple syrup on our ham

Helen

[jersysman]

To someone that is on the fence about buying one of these devices, it would be nice if the tone in these threads could be a lot more information giving and less sniping. I must say that it makes information gathering a lot harder than it has to be. As to me not having a Kobo device, where else besides this forum would I go to for information on the device. All devices have their good and bad points and these points should be discussed in a non-confrontational manner. This is my opinion and no one else. Yes, I want to hear the good points about a reader, but I also want to hear the other viewpoints also. This gives a person thinking about buying the device a more well-rounded picture.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by jersysman

To someone that is on the fence about buying one of these devices, it would be nice if the tone in these threads could be a lot more information giving and less sniping. I must say that it makes information gathering a lot harder than it has to be. As to me not having a Kobo device, where else besides this forum would I go to for information on the device. All devices have their good and bad points and these points should be discussed in a non-confrontational manner. This is my opinion and no one else. Yes, I want to hear the good points about a reader, but I also want to hear the other viewpoints also. This gives a person thinking about buying the device a more well-rounded picture.

I would think if you are on the fence and you see so many confrontational posts and signs of frustration and overt anger, you would be grateful to be forewarned. I don't think people are sniping, so much as voicing their frustration and unhappiness.

Not saying you shouldn't buy one, I, after all bought two Only excuse for the second is I am a gadget freak. Probably I would again override my better judgement and buy another if it was innovative again hardware wise. Kobo does seem to make good hardware, and probably that is where they are putting all of their development money, to the detriment of their software development staff.

My feeling is that the hardware is marginally better than the competitions, but the software is eons behind. They sort numeric values as alphabetical, the books can open in random places, and the faster processor is bogged down by programming practices that haven't been seen on a commercially sold device since the early 80s

Helen

[jersysman]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I would think if you are on the fence and you see so many confrontational posts and signs of frustration and overt anger, you would be grateful to be forewarned. I don't think people are sniping, so much as voicing their frustration and unhappiness.

Not saying you shouldn't buy one, I, after all bought two Only excuse for the second is I am a gadget freak. Probably I would again override my better judgement and buy another if it was innovative again hardware wise. Kobo does seem to make good hardware, and probably that is where they are putting all of their development money, to the detriment of their software development staff.

My feeling is that the hardware is marginally better than the competitions, but the software is eons behind. They sort numeric values as alphabetical, the books can open in random places, and the faster processor is bogged down by programming practices that haven't been seen on a commercially sold device since the early 80s

Helen

I think you might have misunderstood me. I want to see the debate. But when it gets to be personal and sniping, the information flow grinds to a halt.

Thank you for the information you have given me. That is the kind that I need to make an informed buying decision. I am trying to decide whether to get the Aura or wait to see what Sony and Amazon do. Heck, I might get both.

That's why I am here. So, please, continue to give out good information pro or con. I just wish it could just stay in that vein.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by jersysman

I think you might have misunderstood me. I want to see the debate. But when it gets to be personal and sniping, the information flow grinds to a halt.

Thank you for the information you have given me. That is the kind that I need to make an informed buying decision. I am trying to decide whether to get the Aura or wait to see what Sony and Amazon do. Heck, I might get both.

That's why I am here. So, please, continue to give out good information pro or con. I just wish it could just stay in that vein.

My apologies if I seemed accusatory. I am a little confrontational at times. I don't actually mind sniping unless it is personally directed or mean in nature.

It takes all kinds and even the obsessed should be able to post their feelings if no personal derogation is meant by them.

Helen

[Ken Maltby]

"David_e";
You said:
"I also feel that if someone buys a Kobo device, only to then discover it doesn't do what they thought / assumed it did, they're an idiot and I want nothing to do with them. I certainly don't want to read about it or the rest of their idiotic experience. They can stumble onto this place but they can't do a little pre-shopping research? Yeah, stay the #$%& away from me."

Pre-shopping research, like checking out what owners here on MR think and have experienced with the device? But, you only want there to be positive posts. If you get your way, wouldn't you share the blame for misinformed purchases?

As to this:
"And so what if people with positive experiences want to share them? It's rather telling that you feel that those with only negative things should have their voices heard without question but anyone with a positive experience has some ulterior motive or 'mission'."

I haven't seen anyone saying anything about positive postings. I think you mean postings that come to Kobo's defense, that attack anyone with something to say that you consider negative about the devices, there is a difference. Objecting to any post that finds fault with Kobo or their devices, is not saying something positive about Kobo.

Luck;
Ken

Originally Posted by Ken Maltby

Pre-shopping research, like checking out what owners here on MR think and have experienced with the device? But, you only want there to be positive posts. If you get your way, wouldn't you share the blame for misinformed purchases?

I can't speak for david_e, but my observations of negative posts fall in four categories:

1. They are objective problems with Kobo devices. These are reproducible, and produce results that are clearly wrong (ranging from crashes/freezes to not fitting the conventions for publications). The importance of these problems will vary from user to user.

2. They are subjective problems with Kobo devices. These are reproducible, and produce results that are not acceptable to certain users. (These are usually the product of design decisions.)

3. They are objective problems, but difficult to reproduce. These are real problems, but they affect a subset of users. This may be due to manufacturing defects or improper use of the device.

4. Support related issues. I don't know what to think about these issues, because a lot of the people who have brought them up seem to be the type of people who would earn poor customer support (i.e. their mannerisms are more confrontational, which may illicit poor support from the business).

I'll add a fifth category for fun:

5. Antagonistic. These are people who are clearly upset. The reasons may be legitimate, but they are unable to separate their emotions from the events and present a highly biased representation of the events. They frequently feel compelled to do so repeatedly.

At the end of the day, the sharing of good and bad experiences is a good thing. However, it is best if those experiences are presented in an objective manner. Sometimes customers do so. Other times, they don't.

[aceflor]

Originally Posted by jersysman

I think you might have misunderstood me. I want to see the debate. But when it gets to be personal and sniping, the information flow grinds to a halt.

Thank you for the information you have given me. That is the kind that I need to make an informed buying decision. I am trying to decide whether to get the Aura or wait to see what Sony and Amazon do. Heck, I might get both.

That's why I am here. So, please, continue to give out good information pro or con. I just wish it could just stay in that vein.

I own the Aura and the Mini, aside from a Kindle PW and an ipad mini. Those are the one I use. In my household we also have a K4NT, a K3 and a PB360. We had also a Nook glow and a sony T1, both have been given to other family members.
Just to give you a background about my experience.

I love the Mini, its size of course, the design of the device is simple but very nice, the haptic is excellent. Although not HD, the display quality is also real good. The software is not stellar, but it is very good and quite stable, I have had very few problems so far, some that I might have caused.

The Aura is a whole different story. Its display is really good, I like the resolution but it is not much better than my KPW display. A bit, but really not much. It is a bulky device, which I knew before buying, I also don't like the design much, but that is a question of taste, and I am using a cover to counterbalance the fact that I could not find a comfortable position for my hands on the back of the device. What I really, really do not like is the main menu, which is the new trend for Kobo as they implemented it now for the Glo too, it seems to me completely disorganized, but from what I understand it is here to stay so I will have to live with it. I am not a fan either, by far, of the page format, you may have read about it elsewhere so I won't develop here. It is just that if you don't like the page format an e-reader gives you, you're in trouble because that 99% of the activity you do with an e-reader is, well, read. I don't know why, and I have really tried hard to understand, but I don't mind the pages on the Mini, I do mind them a lot on the Aura.

To sum it up, the Aura is not a bad device, it is a good device with some serious drawbacks for me, and it is definitely not worth the 169€, which is the official price here in Europe. I think that you end up getting a better value with the 129€ of the KPW.

As to Kobo as a brand.. well, I'd say they have good hardware and not so good firmware, as opposed to Amazon, which has mid-range hardware but very very good firmware. It would be nice if Sony stayed in the race.

[aceflor]

Originally Posted by david_e

....I just think it is dumb and unproductive for people to come to a third party forum to make their complaints. If you have an issue, send the company an email. If you're unhappy with the response, or lack of response, then find a device that works for you. To sit around hoping and waiting for something to get fixed is ridiculous, especially when you're doing it in a manner with no guarantee of ever being heard.

I also feel that if someone buys a Kobo device, only to then discover it doesn't do what they thought / assumed it did, they're an idiot and I want nothing to do with them. I certainly don't want to read about it or the rest of their idiotic experience. They can stumble onto this place but they can't do a little pre-shopping research? Yeah, stay the #$%& away from me.

....

What I meant earlier ? Q.E.D.

[david_e]

Originally Posted by Ken Maltby

...But, you only want there to be positive posts. If you get your way, wouldn't you share the blame for misinformed purchases?...

Where did I state that I only wanted positive posts? I shared how I feel about people who do very specific things.

I WILL say that I wish the discussions about firmware / bugs would stay in their own threads and not bleed into every other discussion. I can easily avoid the threads I have no interest in, but I can't avoid it when every discussion gets contaminated.

Originally Posted by Ken Maltby

...I think you mean...

And I think you should save the presumptions for someone else.

[david_e]

Originally Posted by aceflor

What I meant earlier ? Q.E.D.

Not quite.

There is a difference in seeing no value in what someone is posting and wanting to silence them.

[samhy]

Well, last week I lended my Sony to someone who's eager to try an ereader before buying one and I was showing the Mini and the Aura to my brothers. Both of them asked my was choice went to Kobo.

Thinking back, I knew the firmware wasn't optimal, but I put more value in good hardware knowing that the software part can be managed later (since I am far from gifted in this industry, it meant expecting people to come up with hacks and plugins). Don't forget that I'm a Linux user so I'm used to frequent updates; some fixing things, some creating other issues
The second important reason was to have a device which was the same (hardware, software) in other coutries (the Sony isn't). So I could display the menu in Japanese and have the Japanese dictionary as well as other dictionaries.

My needs were clear and I don't regret the Mini nor the Aura. The hardware is what I was expecting it to be and I have all the languages that matter to me

If my needs were different or if I had used another brand before*, surely I would sdee things differently.

*my 650 can't have PRS+, so it's nice but with a lot of limitations. Once again, proof that a community can turn a good device in a best of its category one.

[guma]

Originally Posted by david_e

I just think it is dumb and unproductive for people to come to a third party forum to make their complaints. If you have an issue, send the company an email.

It's even more unproductive to complain about people giving their opinion in a third party forum.

Originally Posted by david_e

I also feel that if someone buys a Kobo device, only to then discover it doesn't do what they thought / assumed it did, they're an idiot and I want nothing to do with them. I certainly don't want to read about it or the rest of their idiotic experience. They can stumble onto this place but they can't do a little pre-shopping research? Yeah, stay the #$%& away from me.

People are not coming to you with their opinions. It's you coming to a public forum and reading them. If you don't like what you get to read here why don't you just stay away?

Originally Posted by david_e

And so what if people with positive experiences want to share them? It's rather telling that you feel that those with only negative things should have their voices heard without question but anyone with a positive experience has some ulterior motive or 'mission'.

'Censoring' critical opinion is something entirely different from expressing positive experiences. Not to understand this distinction is - to borrow your wording - kind of dumb.


This forum used to be helpful to learn about how to deal with the KOBO firmware. I.e. whether to update or not and how to work around some bugs, undesired and/or missing features and unhappy design changes.
But since the (very vocal and seemingly unconditionally loyal) KOBO-lover brigade assumed this zero-tolerance stance and stepped up their efforts to censor or discredit most critical opinion, it is now rather tiresome to read through lengthy threads in order to find the few bits of valuable information they may contain.