Literary Nora Webster by Colm Tóibín - Page 2

Bookpossum · 01-18-2017, 06:03 PM

Ha! Yes, the widow's curse did seem a bit antique. But maybe things still were a bit that way back in about 1970 in Ireland. Fantasyfan may be able to help us there.

Glad you liked the Renée Fleming link.

issybird · 01-19-2017, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by issybird

I did think that people could have talked stupid her.

For the life of me, I have no idea what I tried to say there. Swype plus autocorrect is a deadly combination.

What I meant, was that I agree that the people could have rallied around Nora, but it got to be too much for me.

Aha! "Rallied around" renders as "talked stupid." Which shows a lamentable tendency to fall into the same phrases on my part!

Bookpossum · 01-19-2017, 03:56 PM

That's an interesting "translation" of rallied around! I love the way these machines think they know what we want to say better than we do ourselves.

BelleZora · 01-23-2017, 08:51 PM

I wish I had loved this book as much as others, but I disliked Nora. I couldn't imagine the self-involvement of a woman who could abandon her two young children for two months when they were losing their father and the security of the world they had always known. How could she even bear to be away from them, not hear their voices, not try to soothe away their fears? I disliked her ingratitude for the kindnesses of Margaret, her aunt Josie, and her sisters. When Josie takes her on vacation in Spain, we had to hear her complaints about Josie's snoring. I wanted to shake her and tell her to buy some ear plugs. And then to thank Josie for her kindness.

I read that Tóibín writes about the silence between the words, but all I felt was the tedium and minutiae of Nora's life which translated to a tedious read for me.

Halfway through the book I became more involved in the action (?) and I quite enjoyed her involvement with music. As much as I liked The Master, I could not similarly enjoy Nora Webster. Not only did she appear to be ungrateful for the kindness of others. She was annoyed by them. I was annoyed by Nora.

Bookpossum · 01-23-2017, 09:53 PM

Ah, sorry you didn't enjoy it more BelleZora. I actually found her very believable because she was so flawed.

Better luck next month!

fantasyfan · 01-24-2017, 03:14 PM

Well, I have only started the book. So far I feel that Tobin has quite successfully recreated the Ireland of that era. The way the characters speak is astonishingly accurate. I can practically hear their voices. The train journey certainly reminds me of the ones I took at that time. Notice the ceremonial invitation to a cup of tea. That could often certainly imply more than a simple visit.

As to Nora--I don't find her particularly likeable at all. But she certainly is believable and authentic. Her sense of loss and feeling of isolation is moving. Perhaps I will warm to her as the novel proceeds.

AnotherCat · 01-25-2017, 06:13 PM

I have just started this too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fantasyfan

...So far I feel that Tobin has quite successfully recreated the Ireland of that era. The way the characters speak is astonishingly accurate. I can practically hear their voices...

I can hear it a little in the narration too. That also seems, to me, a little Joycian prosy too, and am wondering if a coincidence or not given Joyce's own Nora?

issybird · 01-26-2017, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by issybird

I'm not one who cares about to what extent characters are likeable or I can warm to them, but that said, I was irritated not by Nora in her grief, but by the devices in the storyline. the botched audition.

<SNIP>

Her abandonment of the boys as their father was dying was chilling; if I were going to dislike Nora, that in itself would have provided the justification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BelleZora

I wish I had loved this book as much as others, but I disliked Nora.

<SNIP>

all I felt was the tedium and minutiae of Nora's life which translated to a tedious read for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fantasyfan

As to Nora--I don't find her particularly likeable at all. But she certainly is believable and authentic.

I don't think characters have to be likeable (Humbert Humbert

), but to me, this all says that other factors have to work. I even, with fantasyfan, think she's authentic*. But the story as a whole didn't jibe for me; maybe I was just annoyed at how everything in Nora's life came together so she could devote herself to her grief.

*Although, with BelleZora, I thought her abandonment of the boys was unconscionable and even unbelievable. Not finding time for even a phone call makes her a monster. Two months! No one would want to be judged on the worst thing she ever did, but this was a whopper. In light of that, I could feel sorry for Sacred Heart, who could have used a little of the charity so freely dispensed to Nora. That said, I thought she was rather over the top. And the boss's daughter as well, for that matter. More and more, I think the characters strained my credulity.

Bookworm_Girl · 01-26-2017, 03:17 PM

Nora's abandonment of the boys was pulled from his own childhood experiences.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/ma...3toibin-t.html

Quote:

Also in Toibin's fiction is the recurrent character of an emotionally distant mother, one who uproots her children to leave them with relatives, as his own mother did with him and his brother Niall, when his father suffered "some sort of brain aneurysm." Colm and Niall, who were 8 and 4 respectively and the youngest of five siblings, were dropped off with an aunt's family in County Kildare while their father was hospitalized in Dublin, 35 miles away. Toibin can't remember how long they stayed "three months, maybe four" but during that time, his mother never visited, never wrote and never called. Pulled out of school and away from their friends, the boys never knew when she was coming back. Once their father returned home, they did, too, but their mother, overwhelmed, stayed distant. When his father died, Toibin was 12.

issybird · 01-26-2017, 04:07 PM

There are no words.

Thanks for that, Bookworm_Girl.

Bookpossum · 01-27-2017, 06:40 AM

Thanks from me too Bookworm_Girl - a really interesting article, coupled with the one you told us about earlier.

No wonder Nora feels so true - she was very much drawn from life!

AnotherCat · 02-02-2017, 05:52 PM

Better late than never, maybe, getting into this book, however I finished it a couple of days ago but then had been away from home since.

First, I should say that I am very wary of reading novels unless they have survived at least 10 years in print and maintaining their popularity. That because it seems to me that at the time of first publication all books are wonderful and must reads according to the reviews in news media and magazines, and much of the "arty" commentary. I am too lazy to pick through them or waste money testing for myself. So came to this book slightly blighted.

After reading it I looked at some reviews contemporary with its publication and all seemed to hold it in high regard which I thought fair enough, with me having some reservations. One thing I noticed was many reviewers claimed the book was set in the late 1960s which seemed incorrect to me. The book is written in a linear chronology and while I wondered when it was set I got no real clues to that until the shootings and the embassy burning were mentioned (an Irish reader may have picked up earlier hints as to time). I had assumed that these were the Bloody Sunday shootings in Derry and the British Embassy burning a few days later which places the reference in the book to early 1972.

Now the book starts with Maurice already dead and in Chapter 18, sometime later than the reference to shootings and embassy burning, so sometime in 1972 one assumes, Josie says to Nora that Maurice has been dead for over three years. By my maths that means the book was set in the early 1970's? Perhaps I have missed something?

My feeling is that there are plenty of mothers around like Nora, and plenty worse in the understanding of their children, and plenty of children like Donal and plenty worse afflicted. And there are plenty of families around with both in them and father dead as well. So I felt that the story line was rather humdrum and lacking in tension, except perhaps when Aine "disappeared" in Dublin. But in that I was not entirely comfortable with the use of the emotional Bloody Sunday events (even to Conor saying "Maybe Aine was one of the ones who burned the Embassy") to build it (can't really put my finger on why I felt that?).

However, my knowledge of Irish history is not great and my being non-Irish and half a world away I cannot claim any great understanding of exactly how emotions stand on the subject (I have briefly visited Ireland but the best of the little I can claim is that as I was working there my relationships were immersed ones rather than those of a tourist's superficial fly by). So I felt that the drama added was perhaps much less for me than an Irish or better informed reader's might be; for me trying to imagine the feelings of the family and their acquaintances, when they referred the Dublin events, could only be described as me hallucinating claiming an understanding I am not entitled to.

All that aside, despite the storyline being as I said for me fairly humdrum, I did enjoy reading it. But that in most part because I thought it very well written. The first person speech seemed very natural (and I note that Fantasyfan, having Irish familiarity, could "practically hear their voices"). The narration I felt had a nice slight lyrical touch and did not labour anything nor give me the feeling of being overwritten, "little" events were described in a "little" way. Ongoing (quite interesting) events such as the music happenings and in Nora's workplace helped provide a thread for the story for me and gave room for other participants and their quirks to be built in.

I think there is some Irish heritage Toibin lives up to well in his prose. As one part of that when reading the book and thinking how humdrum the events were to me, I could not help drawing a bit of a comparison with Leopold Bloom's humdrum events (albeit in just a day); also, that the events of Bloom's day are drawn from Joyce's own experience (but crowded into a day) as it seems that at least Nora and Donal are drawn from Toibin's.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Bookpossum · 02-02-2017, 08:19 PM

Glad you enjoyed it over all, AnotherCat. Yes, I think it is all in the writing rather than plot, but also the psychology of the characters, which to me seemed to be spot on.

BelleZora · 02-04-2017, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookpossum

Ah, sorry you didn't enjoy it more BelleZora. I actually found her very believable because she was so flawed.

I was a bit too negative about Nora. Grief does make people self-involved. It's hard to see beyond the pain. The book held my interest, and I'm glad I read it.

bfisher · 02-04-2017, 03:13 PM

Great choice, Bookpossum.

I had a very difficult time with the first third of this book. I wanted to abandon it. It's very hard to read a book with a primary character as unlikeable as Nora. She was so persnickety and even less sympathetic than Francie Kavanagh, and initially, not very interesting either - the ultimate damnation for a character. She seemed determined to throw stones in her own path.

It was only as she started to work through her grief as she fashioned a new life while continuing to care for her children, and as her back history was simultaneously revealed that I got drawn into her story. Ultimately, I thought it was one of the best things I've read in a while.

Toibin's prose seems very plain, yet so descriptive. In Amadeus, Emperor Josef said that Mozart's score had "too many notes"; Toibin's prose has just as many words as are required.

01-24-2017, 03:14 PM	#21
fantasyfan Wizard Posts: 1,368 Karma: 26886344 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Ireland Device: Kindle Oasis 3, 4G, iPad Air 2, iPhone IE	Well, I have only started the book. So far I feel that Tobin has quite successfully recreated the Ireland of that era. The way the characters speak is astonishingly accurate. I can practically hear their voices. The train journey certainly reminds me of the ones I took at that time. Notice the ceremonial invitation to a cup of tea. That could often certainly imply more than a simple visit. As to Nora--I don't find her particularly likeable at all. But she certainly is believable and authentic. Her sense of loss and feeling of isolation is moving. Perhaps I will warm to her as the novel proceeds. Last edited by fantasyfan; 01-24-2017 at 06:17 PM.

02-02-2017, 05:52 PM	#27
AnotherCat .... Posts: 1,547 Karma: 18068960 Join Date: May 2012 Device: ....	Better late than never, maybe, getting into this book, however I finished it a couple of days ago but then had been away from home since. First, I should say that I am very wary of reading novels unless they have survived at least 10 years in print and maintaining their popularity. That because it seems to me that at the time of first publication all books are wonderful and must reads according to the reviews in news media and magazines, and much of the "arty" commentary. I am too lazy to pick through them or waste money testing for myself. So came to this book slightly blighted. After reading it I looked at some reviews contemporary with its publication and all seemed to hold it in high regard which I thought fair enough, with me having some reservations. One thing I noticed was many reviewers claimed the book was set in the late 1960s which seemed incorrect to me. The book is written in a linear chronology and while I wondered when it was set I got no real clues to that until the shootings and the embassy burning were mentioned (an Irish reader may have picked up earlier hints as to time). I had assumed that these were the Bloody Sunday shootings in Derry and the British Embassy burning a few days later which places the reference in the book to early 1972. Now the book starts with Maurice already dead and in Chapter 18, sometime later than the reference to shootings and embassy burning, so sometime in 1972 one assumes, Josie says to Nora that Maurice has been dead for over three years. By my maths that means the book was set in the early 1970's? Perhaps I have missed something? My feeling is that there are plenty of mothers around like Nora, and plenty worse in the understanding of their children, and plenty of children like Donal and plenty worse afflicted. And there are plenty of families around with both in them and father dead as well. So I felt that the story line was rather humdrum and lacking in tension, except perhaps when Aine "disappeared" in Dublin. But in that I was not entirely comfortable with the use of the emotional Bloody Sunday events (even to Conor saying "Maybe Aine was one of the ones who burned the Embassy") to build it (can't really put my finger on why I felt that?). However, my knowledge of Irish history is not great and my being non-Irish and half a world away I cannot claim any great understanding of exactly how emotions stand on the subject (I have briefly visited Ireland but the best of the little I can claim is that as I was working there my relationships were immersed ones rather than those of a tourist's superficial fly by). So I felt that the drama added was perhaps much less for me than an Irish or better informed reader's might be; for me trying to imagine the feelings of the family and their acquaintances, when they referred the Dublin events, could only be described as me hallucinating claiming an understanding I am not entitled to. All that aside, despite the storyline being as I said for me fairly humdrum, I did enjoy reading it. But that in most part because I thought it very well written. The first person speech seemed very natural (and I note that Fantasyfan, having Irish familiarity, could "practically hear their voices"). The narration I felt had a nice slight lyrical touch and did not labour anything nor give me the feeling of being overwritten, "little" events were described in a "little" way. Ongoing (quite interesting) events such as the music happenings and in Nora's workplace helped provide a thread for the story for me and gave room for other participants and their quirks to be built in. I think there is some Irish heritage Toibin lives up to well in his prose. As one part of that when reading the book and thinking how humdrum the events were to me, I could not help drawing a bit of a comparison with Leopold Bloom's humdrum events (albeit in just a day); also, that the events of Bloom's day are drawn from Joyce's own experience (but crowded into a day) as it seems that at least Nora and Donal are drawn from Toibin's. Thanks for the recommendation. Last edited by AnotherCat; 02-02-2017 at 05:59 PM.

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01-18-2017, 06:03 PM	#16
Bookpossum Snoozing in the sun Posts: 10,137 Karma: 115423645 Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Melbourne, Australia Device: iPad Mini, Kobo Touch	Ha! Yes, the widow's curse did seem a bit antique. But maybe things still were a bit that way back in about 1970 in Ireland. Fantasyfan may be able to help us there. Glad you liked the Renée Fleming link.

01-19-2017, 03:56 PM	#18
Bookpossum Snoozing in the sun Posts: 10,137 Karma: 115423645 Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Melbourne, Australia Device: iPad Mini, Kobo Touch	That's an interesting "translation" of rallied around! I love the way these machines think they know what we want to say better than we do ourselves.

01-23-2017, 08:51 PM	#19
BelleZora Wizard Posts: 1,432 Karma: 25151986 Join Date: May 2012 Location: Seattle, US Device: Kindle Oasis 3, Kobo Libra 2	I wish I had loved this book as much as others, but I disliked Nora. I couldn't imagine the self-involvement of a woman who could abandon her two young children for two months when they were losing their father and the security of the world they had always known. How could she even bear to be away from them, not hear their voices, not try to soothe away their fears? I disliked her ingratitude for the kindnesses of Margaret, her aunt Josie, and her sisters. When Josie takes her on vacation in Spain, we had to hear her complaints about Josie's snoring. I wanted to shake her and tell her to buy some ear plugs. And then to thank Josie for her kindness. I read that Tóibín writes about the silence between the words, but all I felt was the tedium and minutiae of Nora's life which translated to a tedious read for me. Halfway through the book I became more involved in the action (?) and I quite enjoyed her involvement with music. As much as I liked The Master, I could not similarly enjoy Nora Webster. Not only did she appear to be ungrateful for the kindness of others. She was annoyed by them. I was annoyed by Nora.

01-23-2017, 09:53 PM	#20
Bookpossum Snoozing in the sun Posts: 10,137 Karma: 115423645 Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Melbourne, Australia Device: iPad Mini, Kobo Touch	Ah, sorry you didn't enjoy it more BelleZora. I actually found her very believable because she was so flawed. Better luck next month!

01-26-2017, 04:07 PM	#25
issybird o saeclum infacetum Posts: 20,229 Karma: 222235366 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: New England Device: H2O, Aura One, PW5	There are no words. Thanks for that, Bookworm_Girl.

01-27-2017, 06:40 AM	#26
Bookpossum Snoozing in the sun Posts: 10,137 Karma: 115423645 Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Melbourne, Australia Device: iPad Mini, Kobo Touch	Thanks from me too Bookworm_Girl - a really interesting article, coupled with the one you told us about earlier. No wonder Nora feels so true - she was very much drawn from life!

02-02-2017, 08:19 PM	#28
Bookpossum Snoozing in the sun Posts: 10,137 Karma: 115423645 Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Melbourne, Australia Device: iPad Mini, Kobo Touch	Glad you enjoyed it over all, AnotherCat. Yes, I think it is all in the writing rather than plot, but also the psychology of the characters, which to me seemed to be spot on.

02-04-2017, 03:13 PM	#30
bfisher Wizard Posts: 1,638 Karma: 28483498 Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Ottawa Canada Device: Sony PRS-T3, Galaxy (Aldiko, Kobo app)	Great choice, Bookpossum. I had a very difficult time with the first third of this book. I wanted to abandon it. It's very hard to read a book with a primary character as unlikeable as Nora. She was so persnickety and even less sympathetic than Francie Kavanagh, and initially, not very interesting either - the ultimate damnation for a character. She seemed determined to throw stones in her own path. It was only as she started to work through her grief as she fashioned a new life while continuing to care for her children, and as her back history was simultaneously revealed that I got drawn into her story. Ultimately, I thought it was one of the best things I've read in a while. Toibin's prose seems very plain, yet so descriptive. In Amadeus, Emperor Josef said that Mozart's score had "too many notes"; Toibin's prose has just as many words as are required.

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