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Old 10-24-2017, 06:30 PM   #61
JSWolf
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Speaking of fonts, if you have an eBook where you need to embed font(s), then you should be able to have it as a KF8 only eBook since it won't work with Mobi. If you need features of KF8 that are not backwards compatible, then yes, a single format should be all that's for sale. The problem (as I see it) is because of Mobipocket, a lot of publishers are crippled and thus, they cannot make the eBook as good as it could be.

Earlier today I finished reading Bucky F&%@ing Dent and in the eBook, the publisher put in some tables of baseball statistics/scores and they were put in as graphics. The problem was that the graphics were too small to be clearly read on a hi-res 6.8" screen. I could make out some just. If I had a 6" screen, none of it would have been readable. I used my iPhone's camera to zoom in so I could read easily. But, this could have been done as a table and it would have been readable.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:49 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
Speaking of fonts, if you have an eBook where you need to embed font(s), then you should be able to have it as a KF8 only eBook since it won't work with Mobi. If you need features of KF8 that are not backwards compatible, then yes, a single format should be all that's for sale. The problem (as I see it) is because of Mobipocket, a lot of publishers are crippled and thus, they cannot make the eBook as good as it could be.
Forgive my moment of hubris, all, but: this is where you tell the wheat from the chaff. Or, to lapse into phrases from long ago and far away, the men from the boys. Where the cow eats the cabbage.

ANY competent (caveat word!) formatter can do wonders even with KF7, IF they know what they're doing. We use a variety of wee tricks, to ensure that the KF7 is nice, if not as awesome as the KF8. I personally put the books on my OWN K2, to test them, to ensure that they still look good.

If a book "needs" embedded fonts--like, say, for example, Kanji--then we bygod make them into images, and we embed them--inline. Yup. If the need is significantly greater--for example, I just had a book that had 8 different characters, all of whom needed (yes, you got it) their OWN font for their journal entries, I sit down and I discuss the KF7 challenges with the client, and how we can ensure that the reading public "gets" whatever it is that they are trying to convey, via the use of the myriad fonts. We'll make adjustmnents or suggest changes to the book itself (e.g., "Wolfie's Journal, Stardate X...") that can be hidden for KF8, and displayed in KF7.

THAT is real "eBook" formatting. The challenge is, after all, conveying the content, the tone, and the meaning of the DT Book to the Digital sphere, and you can't just run something through Calibre and call it finished. /done being hubristic and braggy, now.

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Earlier today I finished reading Bucky F&%@ing Dent and in the eBook, the publisher put in some tables of baseball statistics/scores and they were put in as graphics. The problem was that the graphics were too small to be clearly read on a hi-res 6.8" screen. I could make out some just. If I had a 6" screen, none of it would have been readable. I used my iPhone's camera to zoom in so I could read easily. But, this could have been done as a table and it would have been readable.
THAT is simply stupidity. We embed our graphics at high-rez, and LARGE, so that they are VERY zoomable for reading. We learned that lesson a long time ago. What happened when you zoomed them, Wolfie? They were STILL too small?

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Old 10-24-2017, 07:55 PM   #63
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Forgive my moment of hubris, all, but: this is where you tell the wheat from the chaff. Or, to lapse into phrases from long ago and far away, the men from the boys. Where the cow eats the cabbage.

ANY competent (caveat word!) formatter can do wonders even with KF7, IF they know what they're doing. We use a variety of wee tricks, to ensure that the KF7 is nice, if not as awesome as the KF8. I personally put the books on my OWN K2, to test them, to ensure that they still look good.

If a book "needs" embedded fonts--like, say, for example, Kanji--then we bygod make them into images, and we embed them--inline. Yup. If the need is significantly greater--for example, I just had a book that had 8 different characters, all of whom needed (yes, you got it) their OWN font for their journal entries, I sit down and I discuss the KF7 challenges with the client, and how we can ensure that the reading public "gets" whatever it is that they are trying to convey, via the use of the myriad fonts. We'll make adjustmnents or suggest changes to the book itself (e.g., "Wolfie's Journal, Stardate X...") that can be hidden for KF8, and displayed in KF7.

THAT is real "eBook" formatting. The challenge is, after all, conveying the content, the tone, and the meaning of the DT Book to the Digital sphere, and you can't just run something through Calibre and call it finished. /done being hubristic and braggy, now.
When you embed graphics for Mobi that doesn't support embedded fonts, how do you handle the fact that someone may be reading at a large font size?

How do you handle letting the reader know that these are embedded fonts in the eBook? Unless it's a KFX eBook, spans don't work when using anything Publisher Font (as we recently found out). Also, do you add in font-family: serif?

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THAT is simply stupidity. We embed our graphics at high-rez, and LARGE, so that they are VERY zoomable for reading. We learned that lesson a long time ago. What happened when you zoomed them, Wolfie? They were STILL too small?

Hitch
The only way to allow zooming would be to read the eBook as a kepub and I read ePub. What I was tempted to do but didn't was enlarge the graphics Via the Calibre editor. I still may doing to see how it comes out.

Many eBooks have crappy low-res graphics that have words that you're supposed to read but can't because the publisher is an ass and has no idea how to make an eBook work with current devices.
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Old 10-24-2017, 09:25 PM   #64
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When you embed graphics for Mobi that doesn't support embedded fonts, how do you handle the fact that someone may be reading at a large font size?
EMS, old man. EMS for the sizing of inline graphics. ;-)

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How do you handle letting the reader know that these are embedded fonts in the eBook? Unless it's a KFX eBook, spans don't work when using anything Publisher Font (as we recently found out). Also, do you add in font-family: serif?
Honestly, as up until very recently, only the eInks (the KF8 eInks) had the whole "publisher font" thing, I didn't worry about it. When a client felt strongly about the font(s), we'd put a wee statement in, saying "Yadda-yadda Publisher Font yadda."


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The only way to allow zooming would be to read the eBook as a kepub and I read ePub. What I was tempted to do but didn't was enlarge the graphics Via the Calibre editor. I still may doing to see how it comes out.
Sorry? What device were you using, dear boy?

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Many eBooks have crappy low-res graphics that have words that you're supposed to read but can't because the publisher is an ass and has no idea how to make an eBook work with current devices.
As I said. It's one thing to emulate the look and feel of a pBook--using similar fonts or whatever. BUT, part of our responsibility, as formatters, is, in my opinion, to do more than that. To ensure that the reader gets the content in a way that doesn't handicap him--like text-as-image that's unreadable.

I think I have an advantage over a lot of formatters simply because I'm, ahem, well-seasoned, being {mumble}years old. To diverge just a bit--a few years back--about 4-5 now--I bought David Simon's "The Corner" in ppbk. OMG. I wanted to scream. The thing was in 8 or 9 point, and I could not find any point, with my progressive lenses, that was comfortable to read. Even the smallest difference in distance from my eyes--from the top of the page to the bottom, for example, meant I was constantly, constantly, moving the book in-out-back-in-out-back so I could "comfortably" read it. Or worse, behaving like a bobble head, constantly moving my noggin around to find the best part of the progressive lenses for that bit of page. It was a horror show. I gave in about 50 pages in (of the 800+, mind you), and bought the damn Kindle book, so I wouldn't suffer any longer.

My point in bringing that up is, I assume that readers will increase (or decrease) font sizes; I assume that they don't have perfect eyes. If I can read it COMFORTABLY on all our devices, at the shop, then, it's approved. If not, it's not, period. We redo the graphic. Sometimes--and yes, this makes my guys nuts--I'll make my guys redo manually a graphic that a client's given us, to the point of manually creating an entire table in HTML, and THEN taking the capture of it. It has to be as perfect as possible.

When I think back on the books in '09-'10, and the old 600x800 standard, I shudder. When we get books back to tweak, you can bet your bippy we bygod fix those old graphics, too. (OR, other people's books; we get a lot of the older books from those who have fallen by the wayside.)

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Old 10-27-2017, 02:28 PM   #65
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Fine. You show me a file with a .kf8 file extension, and I'll let this go. There is NO SUCH THING. In fact, Wolfie, I would argue that there is no MOBIpocket/prc format remaining, because it doesn't and cannot stand alone, not any longer. MOBI (KF7) was NEVER MOBI; it was .prc. Hell, I remember when purists would call it KF6, for a variety of reasons.

So: where's the file format called .kf8? Don't know about you, Wolfie, but I build files called .mobi. Period. Does it have KF7 and KF8 inside it? Yes. Those are TYPES of MOBI--not standalone file formats, in the scope of what's properly called a "format." A "format" of file is a file extension--not a conceptual or actual difference between TYPES of that format.

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I agree that Wolf is being obstinate about KF8 but there is an extension that Amazon will use for this format. It is AZW3.

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Old 10-27-2017, 03:39 PM   #66
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I agree that Wolf is being obstinate about KF8 but there is an extension that Amazon will use for this format. It is AZW3.

Dale
Dale:

Actually, that's the extension that Calibre uses. Amazon delivers AZW files--but, those can be KF8 books or FXL eBooks or, or or. Not necessarily KFXes. (They also still deliver other file types, as well.)

If we're going to do that, then, fine, call them AZW but that is not a crapload more precise than "MOBI," and honestly, Wolfie is being pedantic AND, moreover, not even necessarily correctly pedantic, as Amazon themselves call them MOBI files. (And in the Kindle Publishing Guidelines, too!) I correspond with the Tech guys at Seattle, and they don't run around calling them KF8 or KF7 or PRC or Bob's Big EBook Format. In fact, I would argue--backed up by the KPG--that Amazon's habit is to refer to the KF7 as a "Mobi 7" file, when striving to distinguish one from the other, rather than simply "mobi" and "KF8." Hell, look at the KPG.

Hell, I don't even know--because I don't really deal in AZW, other than as a buyer--if there is only a KF8 in an AZW, or not. I do so much xferring of files around, when we're checking--and sometimes, in checking SAMPLES from uploaded books, etc.--I freely admit that my eyes glaze over unless I have to rip one apart to figure out why some type of formatting has done the FUBAR Dance.

I'm a firm believer in precision in language...but at this juncture, I'm not sure that Wolfie's firm distinction is the correct one. No offense, Wolfie, but events, Amazon and the KPG conspire against you.

Until KF7 dies, I fear that Wolfie's angst over this shall continue.

Spoiler:
I actually don't know why I'm having this conversation. Not to be rude, but truly, IDGA hoot. Oh, right, Wolfie was pedantic and confused the woman who was seeking a way to build ONLY a mobi, and who refused to believe that we were helping her. Right. Well, she's apparently stopped reading this thread, so...color me out.


OK--I'm out of this one, 'cuz, really..I swear it, I don't care.

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Old 10-27-2017, 06:07 PM   #67
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In fact, I would argue--backed up by the KPG--that Amazon's habit is to refer to the KF7 as a "Mobi 7" file, when striving to distinguish one from the other, rather than simply "mobi" and "KF8."
Step aside JSWolf, I'll handle this one:

GASP! They are calling it a KF8. filetype now? It is just KF8!

I INSIST you stop telling people false information and begin calling it KF8 now, and not KF8.!

Look at all this confusion that is being sown due to not using Logical Punctuation. I insist that we should all become users of Logical Punctuation here! My way or the highway!

P.S. Amazon thinks it is called the KF8. format. Don't they know having a period at the end of their extension would cause havoc among OSes? CLEARLY, we have a dunce on our hands!

P.P.S. Only I, Tex, is the ultimate correct person!

Last edited by Tex2002ans; 10-27-2017 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:16 PM   #68
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Step aside JSWolf, I'll handle this one:

GASP! They are calling it a KF8. filetype now? It is just KF8!

I INSIST you stop telling people false information and begin calling it KF8 now, and not KF8.!

Look at all this confusion that is being sown due to not using Logical Punctuation. I insist that we should all become users of Logical Punctuation here! My way or the highway!

P.S. Amazon thinks it is called the KF8. format. Don't they know having a period at the end of their extension would cause havoc among OSes? CLEARLY, we have a dunce on our hands!

P.P.S. Only I, Tex, is the ultimate correct person!

I refuse to be pilloried due to the use of proper punctuation, bygod! Punctuation Pillorying is clearly prohibited by the Grammar and Punctuation Police Procedures!

:-)

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Old 10-29-2017, 06:10 PM   #69
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Actually, that's the extension that Calibre uses. Amazon delivers AZW files--but, those can be KF8 books or FXL eBooks or, or or. Not necessarily KFXes. (They also still deliver other file types, as well.)

OK--I'm out of this one, 'cuz, really..I swear it, I don't care.

Hitch
I mostly don't care, but when I buy a book from Amazon for download and USB transfer, the extension is azw3 before Calibre is involved.

Sorry to pull you back in.
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Old 10-29-2017, 10:15 PM   #70
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I created a test EPUB with an embedded font used for h1 elements. No font was specified for the body or regular paragraphs.
I did a further test to see how the new boldness slider in Kindle firmware version 5.8.11 behaves in conjunction with embedded fonts.

The boldness slider is enabled only when a built in font is selected. It is disabled when "Publisher font" is chosen.

For a sideloaded KF8 there is no interaction between the boldness slider and the embedded font, since the embedded font is only used when "Publisher font" is selected.

For a sideloaded KFX the boldness slider affects the chosen base font, but has no impact on how the embedded font is rendered.

That is pretty much what I expected.
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Old 10-30-2017, 02:03 PM   #71
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I mostly don't care, but when I buy a book from Amazon for download and USB transfer, the extension is azw3 before Calibre is involved.

Sorry to pull you back in.
Correct of course, Amazon uses AZW, AZW1 (topaz), AZW3 (KF8), and AZW4 (textbooks) and maybe some others.

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Old 10-30-2017, 04:45 PM   #72
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Correct of course, Amazon uses AZW, AZW1 (topaz), AZW3 (KF8), and AZW4 (textbooks) and maybe some others.

Dale
Well, then I'll back out of this one, because in the last 9+ years, I've never seen an AZW3 or AZW4 file. Now, I'll assume that you guys spend a lot more time moving your Amazon files around, etc., while I spend mine on the pre-upload side...but even with all the devices we have here, from a K2 to an Oasis, etc., I've never laid eyes on either of those file extensions.

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Old 10-30-2017, 04:47 PM   #73
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Well, then I'll back out of this one, because in the last 9+ years, I've never seen an AZW3 or AZW4 file. Now, I'll assume that you guys spend a lot more time moving your Amazon files around, etc., while I spend mine on the pre-upload side...but even with all the devices we have here, from a K2 to an Oasis, etc., I've never laid eyes on either of those file extensions.

Hitch
Download via USB and if the eBook is KF8, you will get a file with a .AZW3 file extension.
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Old 11-10-2017, 09:30 AM   #74
shalym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHK View Post
I did say, "useless or ugly fonts". Mostly books produced by amateurs who probably didn't even notice they were embedding a font. Often pretty mediocre ones, no aesthetic or practical value.
If I notice any styles with a specific font defined I have a look at how and why they are applied. Sometimes for instance a font for "special" characters that might have been necessary in their document on their PC, ugly as it looks with the mismatched font, but knowing the symbol is part of all the built in fonts so the font and the span applying it can be deleted.


Rarely there are books with a nice font that someone did deliberately choose. I might keep them. Or ones with a more decorative font for headlines. Preferable to those who have a text image for all their chapter titles.



Don't know exactly what you mean by "fancy fonts", but of course never sensible to use decorative fonts for body text, for the reasons you give. I might use a "fancy font" for a few words, maybe titles or headlines, not for blocks of text. (Again, except when the publisher insists; and I don't use fancy fonts for body text in any format. 95% of the time I use Adobe Garamond for print.)
Here's an example of a *really* bad decision on the part of the book formatter. I don't know what font they embedded for this, and to tell you the truth, I don't care what font it is. The only thing I care about is that I had to get up and put on my glasses last night when I was reading in bed, because I couldn't read it without them.

I know I could fix it by editing the book and stripping the fonts, but I shouldn't have to, and to be honest, I'm too lazy. If, when I finish the book, I decide that it's one I want to read again, I'll probably fix it. I *really* shouldn't have to, though, especially considering it's a book from a BPH.

Shari
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Old 11-10-2017, 10:20 AM   #75
JSWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shalym View Post
Here's an example of a *really* bad decision on the part of the book formatter. I don't know what font they embedded for this, and to tell you the truth, I don't care what font it is. The only thing I care about is that I had to get up and put on my glasses last night when I was reading in bed, because I couldn't read it without them.

I know I could fix it by editing the book and stripping the fonts, but I shouldn't have to, and to be honest, I'm too lazy. If, when I finish the book, I decide that it's one I want to read again, I'll probably fix it. I *really* shouldn't have to, though, especially considering it's a book from a BPH.

Shari
The book is The Martian. They embedded free serif, free sans, and free mono. These fonts are awful and yes, you should remove them. The monospace font is so light, it can cause eyestrain. The others aren't much better. I did remove these fonts. There's no way at all I was going to read with these fonts embedded.

Last edited by JSWolf; 11-10-2017 at 10:28 AM.
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