It's April *2nd*, and rumors flying that iTunes and EMI are about to dump DRM

[Robert Marquard]

EMI will see the price increase as a victory over Apple which refused price increases until now.
The next step will be competitors doing DRM-less music also and then the price will fall again.
In the meantime it will bring new customers to Apple. Those without iPod namely.
In the end we will get cheap DRM-free music for download.

[NatCh]

We could turn the question around, how many would be more inclined to buying DRM'd books if they were 70% of the non-DRMed ones.

But I think I tend to agree with Robert, they're just too expensive for what they are, for the most part. (Folks like Robert, and Baen excepted, of course!)

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by NatCh

We could turn the question around, how many would be more inclined to buying DRM'd books if they were 70% of the non-DRMed ones.

Well, since I can rent books (in some cases eBooks) from the local library for free, I don't think that many people would pay much of anything for a DRMed eBook.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

There'd be nothing wrong with that idea, except that e-books are generally not fairly priced to the consumer, the way iTunes music is.

But iTunes isn't fairly priced.

1 CD is about 15 songs and costs about $15. So $1 per track is the purchase price for music.

iTunes doesn't sell DRMed music. They license (i.e. rent) it. Does anyone pay Blockbuster purchase price to rent a DVD? I don't think so.

So $1 per DRMed song is not even close to "fairly priced to the consumer."

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

If DRM e-books were, say $2.00, and non-DRM e-books were, say, $2.50 (I know, I couldn't resist!), that might be reasonable to consumers.

I can rent books for free from my local library. Why should I pay any money to rent a DRMed eBook? It's a poor value.

Now, for a purchase price, $2.50 for a non-DRMed eBook seems reasonable - depending on the author, size of the eBook, etc.

[Leaping Gnome]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

I can rent books for free from my local library. Why should I pay any money to rent a DRMed eBook? It's a poor value.

1. You have to go to the library, costing time and gas.
2. You cannot read most library books electronically.
3. You want to keep the book longer than the library allows.
4. You want a book that is easier to transport.
5. etc, etc, etc...

I think you meant it's a poor value to you. Obviously it's not a poor value to others or eBook sites would not be selling thousands of ebooks. And just as obviously iTunes is fairly priced or they would not have sold billions of songs.

[Laurens]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

But iTunes isn't fairly priced.

1 CD is about 15 songs and costs about $15. So $1 per track is the purchase price for music.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...&cs=1&nid=2568

[nekokami]

Perhaps 99c per song seems like a good deal when one only has to pay for the songs one actually wants, rather than the whole album, which often seems to consist largely of "filler."

[Robert Marquard]

Originally Posted by NatCh

But I think I tend to agree with Robert, they're just too expensive for what they are, for the most part. (Folks like Robert, and Baen excepted, of course!)

Is not being expensive a compliment? ;-)
I just bought a dozen used books for 150 Euro to complete my Heyne SF collection (books up to number 4000).
Also wait until you have to pay me :-)

[Robert Marquard]

$1 per track is not too expensive because the people buy it at this price. Albums are out of fashion now so simple price comparison is not fair anymore.
In Germany renting is impossible. It would entitle the consumer to immediate fix of any problems.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Leaping Gnome

I think you meant it's a poor value to you. Obviously it's not a poor value to others or eBook sites would not be selling thousands of ebooks.

And what sites are those? The last time I checked, the DRM eBook sites are not doing very well.

I will also point out 2 things:
1. P.T. Barnum said "There's a sucker born every minute."
2. Many people do not understand that a DRMed eBook is a rental - not a sale.

Originally Posted by Leaping Gnome

And just as obviously iTunes is fairly priced or they would not have sold billions of songs.

And those billions of songs sold represent a small percentage of the music on MP3 players - as Steve Jobs knows and has stated.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Laurens

http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...&cs=1&nid=2568

So, in other words, iTunes has bought their prices down to be competitive with the non-DRM sites. <sarcasm>Wow</sarcasm>

[Leaping Gnome]

The last time I checked, the DRM eBook sites are not doing very well.

Versus what? Sony announced not to long ago that they have been astounded by the success of their Connect eBook store and it beat all of their projections.

Many people do not understand that a DRMed eBook is a rental - not a sale.

And many people, like me, don't care.

And those billions of songs sold represent a small percentage of the music on MP3 players - as Steve Jobs knows and has stated.

What does that have to do with how they are priced?

Anyone who has been on this board for a bit is well aware of your stance against DRM, and that is fine. DRM is a disadvantage to be weighed against the advantages according to a person's needs. Even though I don't buy DRM-controlled music in iTunes I can see why other people might. And I do buy DRM-controlled eBooks because for me the advantage is greater than the disadvantage. Apparently that is not the same for you, but I wish you could at least realize that your situation is not the same as everyone else's.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Leaping Gnome

Versus what? Sony announced not to long ago that they have been astounded by the success of their Connect eBook store and it beat all of their projections.

Sony Board Member 1: So how many people do we think will be suckered into paying hardcover price for an eBook that they can't read on any other device?
Sony Board Member 2: 10 maybe 20 max.
--- a few months later ---
Sony Board Member 1: Hey! 30 people paid money to rent our overpriced eBooks.
Sony Board Member 2: 30! Wow, this beat all our projections!

Originally Posted by Leaping Gnome

What does that have to do with how they are priced?

Prices are set based primarily on 2 factors:
1. How much does it cost?
2. What will consumers pay for it?

If people are aware that they don't buy DRMed content, they will demand a much lower price for it.

Originally Posted by Leaping Gnome

Anyone who has been on this board for a bit is well aware of your stance against DRM, and that is fine. DRM is a disadvantage to be weighed against the advantages according to a person's needs. Even though I don't buy DRM-controlled music in iTunes I can see why other people might. And I do buy DRM-controlled eBooks because for me the advantage is greater than the disadvantage. Apparently that is not the same for you, but I wish you could at least realize that your situation is not the same as everyone else's.

I don't believe you are accurately aware of my stand on DRM.

When media has DRM on it, it's not a "sale". When I purchase a paper book, it's a sale. I can do whatever I want to with that paper book - read it wherever I want, use it however I want, resell it, etc. I own the physical book.

If I pay money for a DRMed eBook, it's a "license" - not a sale. All my rights to use that eBook are eliminated by that license.

Now, if I know that from the start, I take that into consideration when I decide my purchase. But (IHMO) most eBook stores are committing fraud. They are telling consumers that they are "buying" an eBook when what they are actually doing is "renting" it.

As I said before, "how many people would pay purchase price to rent a video from Blockbuster?" I doubt you'd find many people who would do that.

That's what I'm taking about.

I take this stand on DRM to make people aware. If you want to waste your money, you are free to do so. It's your money. If you see some advantage (sorry, I can't see any) to DRMed eBooks, then that's your decision. But you are aware of what you are doing. Most people who pay money for DRMed content aren't aware of what they paid money for - and would probably be shocked to see how little they received for their money.

[Leaping Gnome]

As I said before, "how many people would pay purchase price to rent a video from Blockbuster?" I doubt you'd find many people who would do that.

I think a better analogy would be "how many people would pay purchase price to rent a video from Blockbuster that they can download from the comfort of their couch in a matter of minutes and that is easier to watch and you can re-watch as many times as you want for a period of two or three years or maybe even longer". I think a lot of people would do that.

If you see some advantage (sorry, I can't see any) to DRMed eBooks

I pointed out at least four in my original post. :P

We are just going in circles. That's fine, different strokes for different folks. I think we can both agree the original news, EMI offering non-DRM music finally, is good news.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Leaping Gnome

I think a better analogy would be "how many people would pay purchase price to rent a video from Blockbuster that they can download from the comfort of their couch in a matter of minutes and that is easier to watch and you can re-watch as many times as you want for a period of two or three years or maybe even longer". I think a lot of people would do that.

But now you are getting off the topic of DRM and into the topic of "piracy".

So, staying on the topic of DRM, my original analogy was correct.

Which has better value?

Paying $20 for a paper book that can be resold (or gifted), read anywhere, and will be guaranteed that can be re-read a year from now (or more).

Paying $20 for a paper book that can't be resold (or gifted), can only be read on one device and has no guarantee that can be re-read 1 year from now.

Ask anyone and that question will pretty much be a no-brainer.

To drift into the "piracy" issue a bit: if no company provides what I, as a consumer, want, then I must look elsewhere.

It's not a matter of getting what I want for free. Most people want to pay for value. But if all the legal routes are bad value, "piracy" is the only other option.