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Old 08-06-2022, 01:43 PM   #31
Turtle91
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No worries Hitch - not getting offended or anything - not that invested!

But, you kinda made my point for me. In your example of:
Quote:
T
his is the story of Jacob....
There are only two causes: 1)The css code isn't written correctly, or B)The device/app isn't applying the correctly written CSS properly, or Thirdly) Both (see what I did there?? )

The universal truth is: If the device works "properly" and the css is written "properly" then it will display "properly".

We could open the whole can of worms about css/html standards and whether they are written appropriately, or not. For the sake of this point I have assumed that the standards are correct. *Don't dismiss the point based on the merits of the assumption.

Don't get me wrong....I totally believe that noone has found a device/app that works "properly" under all circumstances... and I totally believe that there can be only one person who uses all the proper techniques (mine) to write their css ....and I totally understand that people who make this their business need to kluge together a method that works for the lowest common denominator devices/apps (no offense meant to your One Drop To Rule Them All markup)....but, in the end, if the user sees something like your example, it's either the device, or the coding, that isn't working.

***

Back to the original point of my post - and along the OP's thread:

You can style the entire paragraph to overcome some of the issues people were having with dropcaps.
In addition to ::first-letter, you can use ::first-line, and styling the whole paragraph.
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Old 08-06-2022, 02:21 PM   #32
JSWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
Dion:

Now, before I say anything, a) you know that I love ya, right? and b) that I have mad respect for your eBook-fu, yes? Okay, having said that:

That's not necessarily true, Dion. I can break almost anybody's coding--even my own!--using nothing more lethal than a Paperwhite, Voyage or Oasis. Why? Because the Paperwhite family of devices will override font calls, to the Dropcap span. Utterly and totally. So, if you code (let's say) for an Adobe Garamond Drop, with AG body font, and Jane buys the book and reads it on, say, Bookerly or worse, Helvetica (please, Helvetica fans, don't leap in here, eh?), the drop cap is NOT going to work. Why? Because all the relative sizes will have now changed.

We've invested, at my place, a fair amount of time in developing One Drop To Rule Them All markup. And it wasn't quick or easy.

I'm not arguing with you, D. I love a good drop myself, just like I adore a good or elegant fleuron or graphic that I haven't seen before, (5,000x....) and all that. But, his Dropcap coding doesn't have to be broken, nor his device, for the dreaded:


T
his is the story of Jacob....

to occur.

Hitch
Another thing I find a real issue on a Kindle is when the publisher makes the first letter say 2em in size. That makes the first line height too large and there is nothing you can do to fix this. You can fix this on ePub but a lot of publishers don't bother.

I bet I could break your One Drop To Rule Them All markup with my normal settings. What size line height to do you need for your One Drop to work?
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Old 08-06-2022, 02:32 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle91 View Post
Your device is either broken... or the dropcap in the book isn't coded properly...

I'm not arguing that there aren't people who dislike that styling - don't care - and that you prefer something different wasn't the point... the point was that you can style the entire paragraph to overcome some of the issues people were having with dropcaps.

I wasn't trying to tell them what app/device to use - I just don't like limiting my creativity because someone out there uses an outdated device with broken functionality... If they get to the point where they are tired of their books looking like crap then they can get a standards compliant device (or put enough pressure on their device/app manufacturers to put out an update).
If you were going to sell an eBook with your code, you would have to test it with an older version of ADE/RMSDK because if it's available in ePub, it could be read on a Kobo in ePub using an older version of RMSDK. The pseudo classes won't work. They will if the eBook is being read as a KePub.
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Old 08-06-2022, 02:37 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
Another thing I find a real issue on a Kindle is when the publisher makes the first letter say 2em in size.
In Typography, that's called a "raised cap".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle91 View Post
I totally believe that there can be only one person who uses all the proper techniques (mine) to write their css
You meant to say mine! As in Tex! Tex is the ultimate arbiter of all ebook knowledge now and forever!
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Old 08-06-2022, 02:44 PM   #35
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You meant to say mine!
That's what he said: mine
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Old 08-06-2022, 02:52 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
Another thing I find a real issue on a Kindle is when the publisher makes the first letter say 2em in size. That makes the first line height too large and there is nothing you can do to fix this. You can fix this on ePub but a lot of publishers don't bother.

I bet I could break your One Drop To Rule Them All markup with my normal settings. What size line height to do you need for your One Drop to work?
Now, Wolfie--do you have any idea how much I invested, developing the ODTRTA caps? I ain't tellin' you, brutha. I loves you too, but...that's a bridge too far. The trick is not the actual size, per se.

BTW, what you're talking about are Raised Initials, rather than Drops. Most publishers roll with RIs, because while they mess up the leading on that first line (due to the line adjusting for descender space), it's far far less likely to go bonkers than a Dropbox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
If you were going to sell an eBook with your code, you would have to test it with an older version of ADE/RMSDK because if it's available in ePub, it could be read on a Kobo in ePub using an older version of RMSDK. The pseudo classes won't work. They will if the eBook is being read as a KePub.
Wolfie, you know as well as I that Turtle already knows this. He's been doing this a very long time, too. Those of us in the biz all know this, already. Each of us makes a choice, about which things we'll live with, what we won't...it's highly individualized. And to some extent, it's dependent on the customers and their demands, too.

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Old 08-06-2022, 03:04 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
Now, Wolfie--do you have any idea how much I invested, developing the ODTRTA caps? I ain't tellin' you, brutha. I loves you too, but...that's a bridge too far. The trick is not the actual size, per se.
But I do read with a smaller line height them most. So would that break your ODTRTA?

BTW, what you're talking about are Raised Initials, rather than Drops. Most publishers roll with RIs, because while they mess up the leading on that first line (due to the line adjusting for descender space), it's far far less likely to go bonkers than a Dropbox.[/quote]

I had forgotten the correct term when I posted that. I;ve always heard it called raised cap. But no matter what it's called, I've seen it botched up more then correct. And when it's used on the first paragraph after a section break can also break it.



Quote:
Wolfie, you know as well as I that Turtle already knows this. He's been doing this a very long time, too. Those of us in the biz all know this, already. Each of us makes a choice, about which things we'll live with, what we won't...it's highly individualized. And to some extent, it's dependent on the customers and their demands, too.
I was posting that mostly for others who may not know this. I know our resident reptile knows this.

If you didn't know who most of the customers of this eBook would be and what they would be using to read it, would you still do the pseudo classes or do it by hand with spans?
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Old 08-06-2022, 03:59 PM   #38
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I'm starting to see why some people use drop caps in ebooks now. They're satisfied with really awful-looking drop caps. They must think they look good. My standards were always quite a bit higher. If I can't do it well, I won't do it at all.

Sure, if you like bad drop caps, you can do them. It might resemble a drop cap, or a raised cap. Even though it's really pretty random what you get. I didn't realise people weren't that bothered about micro-precision. I am. So I don't use drop caps in ebooks because what I want isn't possible. If what someone else wants is possible, go ahead, but let's not call it a drop cap, let's call it what it is: bad typography.

Last edited by bookman156; 08-06-2022 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 08-06-2022, 04:02 PM   #39
Hitch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle91 View Post
No worries Hitch - not getting offended or anything - not that invested!

(snippage)

The universal truth is: If the device works "properly" and the css is written "properly" then it will display "properly".
It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single ebook with gorgeous Dropcaps must be in want of a proper device.

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Old 08-06-2022, 05:07 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
If you didn't know who most of the customers of this eBook would be and what they would be using to read it, would you still do the pseudo classes or do it by hand with spans?
Spans.
Which might explain why on my vandalistic removal of Drop Caps, SMALL CAPS and Raised Initials that I've only ever seen the miscreants (like the House of Random Penguins and everyone else) use spans.

It's fine to do it for yourself, if you like that kind of thing.
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