Punctuation rules of thumb?

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

@Jellby - curious: in Spanish would you use an em-dash (u2014) '—' or a quotation dash (horizontal bar) (u2015) '―'. In some fonts a quote dash a tad shorter and heavier than an em dash , e.g. TNR

I don't recall ever seeing two different em-dash-like characters in a Spanish book, it's always a single type of dash for dialogue or other uses, and there's no en-dash either, only hyphen, and minus sign (if there's any math). I can't say for sure which Unicode character they use in (printed) books, but I'd use em-dash because of better support and probably better in-text look (as in the particular case of TNR). There are, however, some issues, like lines breaking before/after an en-dash, which should not be allowed in Spanish (except if there is a space) and that the quotation dash should fix.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Jellby

I don't recall ever seeing two different em-dash-like characters in a Spanish book, it's always a single type of dash for dialogue or other uses [...] I can't say for sure which Unicode character they use in (printed) books, but I'd use em-dash because of better support and probably better in-text look (as in the particular case of TNR).

While I was researching that "quotation dash" in the previous topic, I went digging through the actual documentation:

"The Unicode Standard, Version 12" (PDF) states this:

6.2. General Punctuation > Dashes and Hyphens

[...]

U+2014 em dash is used to make a break—like this—in the flow of a sentence. (Some typographers prefer to use U+2013 en dash set off with spaces – like this – to make the same kind of break.) Like many other conventions for punctuation characters, such usage may depend on language. This kind of dash is commonly represented with a typewriter as a double hyphen. In older mathematical typography, U+2014 em dash may also used to indicate a binary minus sign. U+2015 horizontal bar is used to introduce quoted text in some typographic styles.

But I've never seen one in the wild (although I don't read languages that use that character).

I'm betting it's like the narrow no-break space... not well supported, and hard to type/input... so it gets replaced with a "close enough" character for ease-of-use.

[BetterRed]

Thanks Jellby, curiosity satisfied - cat not dead

I use non-breaking hyphens in things like phone, card and part numbers. If I read a number across two lines I immediately forget it, it's like I lose the rhythm or something.

Transtool's Insert Symbol tool is invaluable for inserting special characters. I have it configured so that Ctrl+Win+S pops a grid of the chars that I want. The best thing about it is that it's available in all applications - from Word to Notepad. It also has a Copy Unformatted Text feature that works in everything.

BR

[DNSB]

For an oddity, my wife ran into an book that showed the rectangular box on her ereader with her default font in quite a few spots. Changing fonts, the character showed as what looked close to an em dash. When she asked WTF is this, I dug into the ebook and found the author instead of using an em dash had used the straightness character ( 0x23E4 ⏤ ).

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DNSB

For an oddity, my wife ran into an book that showed the rectangular box on her ereader with her default font in quite a few spots. Changing fonts, the character showed as what looked close to an em dash. When she asked WTF is this, I dug into the ebook and found the author instead of using an em dash had used the straightness character ( 0x23E4 ⏤ ).

That's one thing I've never encountered. But then ChareInk probably has that character. So maybe I have and just don't know it.

What book is this that's doing this with the em dash?

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by DNSB

[...] I dug into the ebook and found the author instead of using an em dash had used the straightness character ( 0x23E4 ⏤ ).

Strange, I never ran across that specific character.

From a quick search, and looking at the surrounding Unicode characters, I believe it's used in technical drawings (like schematics):

https://www.gdandtbasics.com/straightness/

The two characters right next to it kind of gave me the hint:

⏥ (U+23E5) FLATNESS
⏦ (U+23E6) AC CURRENT

Definitely should be reported/fixed.

Who knows how Text-to-Speech would deal with it. Imagine hearing an entire book full of "straightness" instead of a brief pause.

Reminds me of the "famous" 2014 self-published book with the minus sign instead of en dash:

https://www.reddit.com/r/writing/com...05a/?context=3

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

Strange, I never ran across that specific character.

From a quick search, and looking at the surrounding Unicode characters, I believe it's used in technical drawings (like schematics):

It's a term that relates to curved surfaces mainly in precision engineering and optics.

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

Who knows how Text-to-Speech would deal with it. Imagine hearing an entire book full of "straightness" instead of a brief pause.

It might even be autocorrected to 'Caithness" which would get on your Wick

BR

[DNSB]

Re: straightness

@jswolf: I don't recall the title off hand but it was a soft core romance which was a freebie in Kobo/Amazon/etc. BTW, the character does not exist in CharisSIL 5—see attached image.

@Tex2002ans: It's the only time I've seen that character used. I did mention the issue to the author but have never checked to see if it was cleaned up in either the Kindle or epub flavour.

[Quoth]

Compose --- = — em dash
Compose --. = – en dash
By default - on a keyboard in a wordprocessor is hyphen. You'd have to go looking for a minus sign.

Maybe the Author didn't know how to do an em dash?
The danger of only proof reading on your own PC, or on one platform with embedded fault.

I must add that to our inhouse style guide with a warning where hyphen, en, em and minus are explained. I've done engineering inc mechanical drawings for years and never saw those characters, though when I started people used boards, pencils, paper, Mylar and drafting pens with stencils.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Maybe the Author didn't know how to do an em dash?

Probably chose it out of the character map, and were only going by the visual:

— = Em Dash
– = En Dash
− = Minus Sign
- = Hyphen

Easy mistake to make.

And if you don't even know what an En Dash is, it may look like an error. When I first started digitizing books, I wondered why the heck number ranges looked weird:

✗ See Semi-Example, pp. 123-135. (Hyphen)
✓ See Semi-Example, pp. 123–135. (En Dash)

... because I never even knew a slightly longer dash existed. All you see on the keyboard is a single hyphen button, and that's all I ever typed.

Originally Posted by Quoth

The danger of only proof reading [...] on one platform with embedded fault.

Yep, that too. Depending on the font, the difference between dashes is nearly indistinguishable:

✗ This is a great ⏤ and I mean great ⏤ example. (U+23E4 Straightness)
✗ This is a great ― and I mean great ― example. (U+2015 Quotation Dash)
✓ This is a great — and I mean great — example. (U+2014 Em Dash)
✗ This is a great − and I mean great − example. (U+2212 Minus Sign)
✓ This is a great – and I mean great – example. (U+2013 En Dash)
✓ This is a great - and I mean great - example. (U+002D Hyphen)

Times New Roman

Spoiler:

This is a great ⏤ and I mean great ⏤ example. (U+23E4 Straightness)
This is a great ― and I mean great ― example. (U+2015 Quotation Dash)
This is a great — and I mean great — example. (U+2014 Em Dash)
This is a great − and I mean great − example. (U+2212 Minus Sign)
This is a great – and I mean great – example. (U+2013 En Dash)
This is a great - and I mean great - example. (U+002D Hyphen)

Arial

Spoiler:

This is a great ⏤ and I mean great ⏤ example. (U+23E4 Straightness)
This is a great ― and I mean great ― example. (U+2015 Quotation Dash)
This is a great — and I mean great — example. (U+2014 Em Dash)
This is a great − and I mean great − example. (U+2212 Minus Sign)
This is a great – and I mean great – example. (U+2013 En Dash)
This is a great - and I mean great - example. (U+002D Hyphen)

Georgia

Spoiler:

This is a great ⏤ and I mean great ⏤ example. (U+23E4 Straightness)
This is a great ― and I mean great ― example. (U+2015 Quotation Dash)
This is a great — and I mean great — example. (U+2014 Em Dash)
This is a great − and I mean great − example. (U+2212 Minus Sign)
This is a great – and I mean great – example. (U+2013 En Dash)
This is a great - and I mean great - example. (U+002D Hyphen)

Garamond

Spoiler:

This is a great ⏤ and I mean great ⏤ example. (U+23E4 Straightness)
This is a great ― and I mean great ― example. (U+2015 Quotation Dash)
This is a great — and I mean great — example. (U+2014 Em Dash)
This is a great − and I mean great − example. (U+2212 Minus Sign)
This is a great – and I mean great – example. (U+2013 En Dash)
This is a great - and I mean great - example. (U+002D Hyphen)

Verdana

Spoiler:

This is a great ⏤ and I mean great ⏤ example. (U+23E4 Straightness)
This is a great ― and I mean great ― example. (U+2015 Quotation Dash)
This is a great — and I mean great — example. (U+2014 Em Dash)
This is a great − and I mean great − example. (U+2212 Minus Sign)
This is a great – and I mean great – example. (U+2013 En Dash)
This is a great - and I mean great - example. (U+002D Hyphen)

Courier New

Spoiler:

This is a great ⏤ and I mean great ⏤ example. (U+23E4 Straightness)
This is a great ― and I mean great ― example. (U+2015 Quotation Dash)
This is a great — and I mean great — example. (U+2014 Em Dash)
This is a great − and I mean great − example. (U+2212 Minus Sign)
This is a great – and I mean great – example. (U+2013 En Dash)
This is a great - and I mean great - example. (U+002D Hyphen)

One tip when proofing is to change the document's font (and margins) from what you originally used. This would make previously "invisible" problems stand out.

Originally Posted by Quoth

Compose --- = — em dash
Compose --. = – en dash
By default - on a keyboard in a wordprocessor is hyphen. You'd have to go looking for a minus sign.

Side Note: I'm not a large fan of relying on autocorrect. It can still miss a lot depending on when/where you typed the dashes/spaces... so I'd always do a final pass to normalize all dashes before publishing.

A few months back, I summarized a ton of my "dash posts" over the years in this LanguageTool enhancement:

#1551: "recommend n-dash instead of m-dash?"

I also explained how a user should be able to choose:

• # and type of spaces
• which dashes to use

based on category (like parentheticals, number ranges, quotes, [...]).

This would allow you to easily normalize the dashes to fit any Style Guide or language.

The only tool I've run across that designed it that way is Antidote (an English/French grammarchecker).

[JSWolf]

https://www.thepunctuationguide.com/en-dash.html

Given what's said about the en dah as that link, why do books in the UK sometimes use the en dash in place of the em dash?


On another topic (quotes), why do books in the UK sometimes use single quotes instead of double quotes?

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

https://www.thepunctuationguide.com/en-dash.html

Given what's said about the en dah as that link, why do books in the UK sometimes use the en dash in place of the em dash?


On another topic (quotes), why do books in the UK sometimes use single quotes instead of double quotes?

Maybe because they have been printing books since fourteen-seventy-something

BR

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

Maybe because they have been printing books since fourteen-seventy-something

BR

It's time to get with current rules of typography.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

[...] why do books in the UK sometimes use the en dash in place of the em dash?

On another topic (quotes), why do books in the UK sometimes use single quotes instead of double quotes?

This was already answered in Post #16 of this very same thread.

[Jellby]

I think it may be the same reason why books in France are sometimes written in French