Amazon 'Destroyed the Retail Industry Across the US'

[darryl]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Online shopping is a god send for rural areas. It's the same situation as catalog shopping pre-internet. The same dynamic for broadband internet services and for that matter cell phones. It's a totally different market.

The problem for retailers in general is that online shopping is not a totally different market. Catalog shopping is far different to shopping on Amazon, particularly for a Prime member. Catalog shopping here and I understand in the US complemented the business of those retailers offering it. It was before my time, but I understand that at least in NSW the catalog business was dominated by Marcus Clark, a now long defunct Department Store. I believe Sears dominated the trade in the US. You can of course regard, say, Amazon's website as a glorifed catalog if you like. But if so, todays "catalog" sales are direct and often vicious competitors, in Amazon's case taking a large chunk of the market. The appeal of the convenience, sheer variety, discounted prices and the quick and cheap or "free" delivery does not just appeal to rural customers.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

No, I didn't fall in the same trap. Look at what I actually said. I was specifically talking about bookstores and how they might attract customers. If you live in an area that doesn't have a bookstore, rather obviously nothing I said applies to your situation. If you live in a rural area with a low population density, then specialty stores are going to have to tough go.

Online shopping is a god send for rural areas. It's the same situation as catalog shopping pre-internet. The same dynamic for broadband internet services and for that matter cell phones. It's a totally different market.

I misunderstood then. You said that when you lose access to the bookstore (bookstore goes belly up), that the book clubs that previously went to a bookstore are now migrating to a coffee shop. At least how I interpreted it. In areas where there never has been bookstores a coffee shop would not do either due to size. Libraries do fill that void in more rural areas.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by darryl

The problem for retailers in general is that online shopping is not a totally different market. Catalog shopping is far different to shopping on Amazon, particularly for a Prime member. Catalog shopping here and I understand in the US complemented the business of those retailers offering it. It was before my time, but I understand that at least in NSW the catalog business was dominated by Marcus Clark, a now long defunct Department Store. I believe Sears dominated the trade in the US. You can of course regard, say, Amazon's website as a glorifed catalog if you like. But if so, todays "catalog" sales are direct and often vicious competitors, in Amazon's case taking a large chunk of the market. The appeal of the convenience, sheer variety, discounted prices and the quick and cheap or "free" delivery does not just appeal to rural customers.

Sears and Montgomery Ward were the two biggest department store/catalog vendors but in the US (Radio Shack and Lafayette also did big business in the mail order business) but there were dozens if not hundreds of mail order-only vendors ranging from the likes of Spiegle and Fingerhut, to JC WHITNEY.
The latter quietly became an integral part of the economy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JC_Whitney

Amazon is a direct successor to the mail order vendors which in tbe 80's and 90's were a such cornerstone of the PC revolution that users would buy their monthly 800 page monster magazine for the ads rather than the nominal content. If it was PC related it was there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comp...r_(US_magazine)

Given the timing it is almost a certainty pre-NY Bezos knew of the shopper and used it either in high school or college. Ditto for JC Whitney. So tbe idea of starting a "catalog" business on the emerging internet in the mid 90's was no act of genius. Dozens were doing it. Hundreds to thousands by the turn of the century.

What distinguishes Amazon isn't what it does or even how it does it (they are hardly the first or only company playing the startup long game of using one product line to fund the creation of another) but rather their scale. Bezos' game is much bigger than retail or even building a conglomerate. Much like Musk, his corporate deals exist as cash generating stepping stones to fund his true long terms goal.

But where Musk thinks he's close enough to show his hand (Mars) Bezos is still playing his cards close to the vest. Maybe he wants to be D.D. Harriman, maybe he wants the asteroid belt. We'll have to wait and see what he is really up to.

But Amazon isn't the goal of his ambitions, it's just a tool to generate the billions upon billions he needs for his real goal much as Musk is using SpaceX and StarLink. 20 years from now people will laugh at all the angst over such a piddly thing as retail.

Those boys are playing a much bigger game that is just starting.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by darryl

The problem for retailers in general is that online shopping is not a totally different market. Catalog shopping is far different to shopping on Amazon, particularly for a Prime member. Catalog shopping here and I understand in the US complemented the business of those retailers offering it. It was before my time, but I understand that at least in NSW the catalog business was dominated by Marcus Clark, a now long defunct Department Store. I believe Sears dominated the trade in the US. You can of course regard, say, Amazon's website as a glorifed catalog if you like. But if so, todays "catalog" sales are direct and often vicious competitors, in Amazon's case taking a large chunk of the market. The appeal of the convenience, sheer variety, discounted prices and the quick and cheap or "free" delivery does not just appeal to rural customers.

There were a lot of different catalog companies up through the 90's, some quite specialize. You had general purpose catalogs like the Sears/Roebuck catalog. You had electronic parts catalogs, heck, back when I was a teenager and was into war-games, I use to order miniatures from catalogues that specialize in miniatures and war games. Some catalogs were associated with companies that had retail stores, such as Sears, others were catalog only, run out of some guy's basement. It really was a lot like the web with Sears-Roebuck taking the place of Amazon.

Yea, it did take a lot longer to get merchandise than now, and delivery was purely US post, but I got my first hard drive from a catalog back in the mid 80's, a 10 MB hard drive that cost over $1000, for my Apple IIe.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

I misunderstood then. You said that when you lose access to the bookstore (bookstore goes belly up), that the book clubs that previously went to a bookstore are now migrating to a coffee shop. At least how I interpreted it. In areas where there never has been bookstores a coffee shop would not do either due to size. Libraries do fill that void in more rural areas.

No, I don't believe that I said that. I was saying that book clubs were more likely to go to coffee shops than libraries. My SIL belongs to a book club and as far as I know, there isn't a book store within 20 miles of her and hasn't been for over 20 years. They don't meet in the library, they rotate between restaurants. It's a small town, but one big enough to have several restaurants, plus the usual fast food places at the highway exit and have a two block downtown.

For the most part, I was talking in the context of B&N and how such a bookstore would be able to compete with online book stores. I suspect in some of the more rural areas, the local bookstore is Walmart.

[theducks]

fjtorres probably listed ALL of my main sources by mail.
I also belonged? to 2 record clubs, a (open reel) Quad Tape club.
Mail order was King. Especially in rural areas not big enough to support malls.

Speaking of Malls. Many of the ones built in the 70's have failed, are even GONE (torn down). I find it interesting that some of the ones from BEFORE then, are still thriving (at least, in the SF Bay area)

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by theducks

fjtorres probably listed ALL of my main sources by mail.
I also belonged? to 2 record clubs, a (open reel) Quad Tape club.
Mail order was King. Especially in rural areas not big enough to support malls.

Speaking of Malls. Many of the ones built in the 70's have failed, are even GONE (torn down). I find it interesting that some of the ones from BEFORE then, are still thriving (at least, in the SF Bay area)

The earlier ones were focused more on being regional sales draws?

Too many of the 70's/80's malls were more neighborhood- and entertainment-focused. It made them more vulnerable to online and to entertainment changes than pure commerce destination plays. A lot of the failed ones I've seen were in or right next to residential areas instead of business-focused interstate exits.

Location may also play a role. Early malls had their pick of locations while the newer ones had to avoid the existing ones.

All are suffering from overbuilding but some were better equipped for longterm survival.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The earlier ones were focused more on being regional sales draws?

Too many of the 70's/80's malls were more neighborhood- and entertainment-focused. It made them more vulnerable to online and to entertainment changes than pure commerce destination plays. A lot of the failed ones I've seen were in or right next to residential areas instead of business-focused interstate exits.

Location may also play a role. Early malls had their pick of locations while the newer ones had to avoid the existing ones.

All are suffering from overbuilding but some were better equipped for longterm survival.

Locally, they are still building malls, but those malls are changing. Probably the most successful of the more recent malls is a mixed use development that is a combination of condos, restaurants, upscale shops, Whole Food, a hotel, some office buildings and a high class movie house. No bookstore though. It's all focused on higher end experience. There is no food court or fast food. All the fast food is outside the mall itself on the edges of the development. The older mall, perhaps a mile away is quickly falling apart as the better shops are shifting to the new mall. I haven't actually been in the old mall in about a year, though I regularly go to the new mall.

The parking lot is usually crowded at the new mall. It's an interesting place. It's not an enclosed mall in that it doesn't have a roof, however, it's also not a strip mall. The mixed use gives the shops and restaurants plenty of customers since perhaps a third of the customer mix either lives there or works there.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

We make OEM suspension components for new SUVs and trucks (light and heavy duty consumer grade). My job, in particular, is taking care (setup and running) of the first six machines of the process. Fairly simple once you get over the steep learning curve. That is probably true for most every job, though. A lot of little things to remember, strong troubleshooting skills required. Some basic math and being mechanically inclined helps. In short, everything my job needs is no longer taught in high school. The only way to overcome short comings is to have the motivation to learn quick and being able to remember a lot of things quickly.

I once met a guy who said he done a lot of stupid things during high school. I asked him how he managed to get his degree then with fairly good grades. Answer: He grew up in California. Sad, but we both laughed. Both fully aware that he only had a undeserved participation award.

I went to college for a year at Southwest Tech (Fennimore WI) and one day I heard two teachers bemoaning that their students had trouble with comprehending what they were reading. I asked them, "Isn't that something they are supposed to learn in grade school?" and the one said, "Exactly, that's my point." So you aren't alone in criticism of education as it stands. I was tested at age 13 and had a High School Senior's reading level. Of course I have always been a reader since my mom got me my 1st library card (at age 3) so I had an advantage. Sounds like your job is of particular importance though. If the start of the line isn't set up right then the end product won't come out as it should. Probably some stress there I'd imagine at times.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Locally, they are still building malls, but those malls are changing. Probably the most successful of the more recent malls is a mixed use development that is a combination of condos, restaurants, upscale shops, Whole Food, a hotel, some office buildings and a high class movie house. No bookstore though. It's all focused on higher end experience. There is no food court or fast food. All the fast food is outside the mall itself on the edges of the development. The older mall, perhaps a mile away is quickly falling apart as the better shops are shifting to the new mall. I haven't actually been in the old mall in about a year, though I regularly go to the new mall.

The parking lot is usually crowded at the new mall. It's an interesting place. It's not an enclosed mall in that it doesn't have a roof, however, it's also not a strip mall. The mixed use gives the shops and restaurants plenty of customers since perhaps a third of the customer mix either lives there or works there.

There was an enclosed mall down the street from me when I moved into the apt. complex where I live. Now it's split up into separate stores with no ability to walk about from one to another.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by crich70

There was an enclosed mall down the street from me when I moved into the apt. complex where I live. Now it's split up into separate stores with no ability to walk about from one to another.

In the area I lived there were four enclosed malls within 15 minutes street level driving distance. Figure; 10 mile radius.

First was in a suburban business area--two hotels, several office buildings, two apartment high rises--at the exit of a major interstate.

Second was in a residential area, housing developments and a few small businesses all around.

Third was also a residential area but it had a couple office buildings and one high rise.

All dated to the 60's.

The fourth dated to the 90's and wasn't an enclosed mall, but ratber a faux-downtown conglomerate in an upscale outer suburb that had no real downtown. Most of the buildings were multipurpose; ground level retail, business and residential second/third floors. Parking garage. Nice mix of businesses. If you worked there and could afford the rents you could walk everywhere. Had both a B&N and a Borders (which none of the others had). For a while, anyway. B&N is still there.

Of the older ones, the one embedded in the business center is still around.

The second one died in the 90's. First they tried using it for office space, then other uses. Eventually they razed it. It might be a park for all I know.

The third one was downsized and rebuilt into a faux-downtown recently. Looks nice but it's early to tell how successful the revamp will be.

All in all about 50% of the mall space is gone, maybe more if you don't think of the multiuse complexes as malls. A case can be made either way.

The thing is, by the 90's--pre-internet, mind you--there was evidence of trouble coming and smart developers acted accordingly.

Blaming the internet alone, and focusing on Amazon specifically, is short sighted. The problem is not online nor is it the Mall concept itself, but rather the technological and sociological changes that reduced the need and profitability of the format.

Essentially the same thing that happened to the cathedrals of literature.
There's still room for them but only in certain very specific and limited places.

It's the 21st century out there--a fifth of the way through--and 20th century concepts are more problem than solution. New age, new solutions needed.

[tubemonkey]

It's been about 15 years or so since I've been inside a B&M mall. Nowadays, I shop at that huge online mall called Amazon

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

It's been about 15 years or so since I've been inside a B&M mall. Nowadays, I shop at that huge online mall called Amazon

The local mall has a great food court...
...and it's been three years, anyway.

They're doing well enough to expand last year but they're doing it by moving upscale.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Blaming the internet alone, and focusing on Amazon specifically, is short sighted. The problem is not online nor is it the Mall concept itself, but rather the technological and sociological changes that reduced the need and profitability of the format.

Essentially the same thing that happened to the cathedrals of literature.
There's still room for them but only in certain very specific and limited places.

It's the 21st century out there--a fifth of the way through--and 20th century concepts are more problem than solution. New age, new solutions needed.

Exactly.

[barryem]

Originally Posted by Anabana

So, going back a bit (I didn't read every post and hope I'm not repeating), that damned Henry Ford put the horse and carriages out of business! Did he retrain any of them to be auto mechanics? I hardly think so...

First, the horse and buggy became a smaller business long before Henry Ford started making cars. The early auto manufacturers didn't use assembly lines, and neither did the buggy makers, so they were probably a good source of factory workers. They were pretty much already trained for not so very different work. Of course I'm just guessing but I think it's a fairly safe bet that that was one source of early auto workers.

Mechanics repair cars. Factory workers build them.

By the way a really good novel about this very topic is Booth Tarkington's "The Magnificent Ambersons". It's not about retraining factory workers so much as it's about the changes in society brought as the auto industry came into being. It was also the second ever Pulitzer Prize winning novel, and for good reason.

Barry