How much is a gadget worth?

[Billi]

Originally Posted by Rob Lister

Having raised three boys, and having watched each pass through the age of 17, I really think you're mistaken.

Originally Posted by Belfaborac

Having at one point been 17, I concur.

Maybe I am mistaken, that's possible, but, Rob, how many kidneys are missing in your family, have you sold one of your kidneys, Belfa? If all the kidneys are still at their "right" place then this is more a point for my argument, how silly they (and I, when I was 17) may have behaved in other situations.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Organ sales go beyond blood sales (ethically tricky to start with), hair sales, and even prostitution in that they are irrevocable decisions. Once you give up that kidney it won't grow back.

That's the point and that is something every child knows!

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The poor are exploited enough as is; at least let's not add to their misery.

I can't see the pattern "poor child that has been exploited by greedy adults" here. He has not been forced to sell his kidney. And if he had sold the kidney to feed his family or to be able to buy them a house or some expensive medical treatment he would have all of my compassion, but to buy an iPad? Really???

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Billi

I can't see the pattern "poor child that has been exploited by greedy adults" here. He has not been forced to sell his kidney. And if he had sold the kidney to feed his family or to be able to buy them a house or some expensive medical treatment he would have all of my compassion, but to buy an iPad? Really???

Let's see; 17 year old sells kidney, gets a tenth of its black-market value, ends up with renal failure.
No exploitation?
Ooohh-kaaayyy....

[Billi]

No. For me it would be exploitation if he didn't have a choice. But he was not forced to sell his kidney. He made the first step, he wanted to sell his kidney. He spoiled his health for a gadget. And I don't know anything about the Chinese legal system but I assume that his parents had to give their consent to the operation.

Edit: The last sentence was wrong, the mother didn't know anything of it.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by VaporPunk

1st, he didn't receive $35K, just $3k.
2nd, he's a 17 year old kid...
3rd, he's suffering from renal failure, which means he's bound to run up more than $3K in medical costs, which society will have to pay for. Unless, of course, you propose just letting him die...

In China you have to pay for medical services out of your own pocket. And they just stopped the "executions for organs on demand" a few days ago. At least officially.

[Namekuseijin]

A sucker is born every day. In china, make it a thousand.

[VaporPunk]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

In China you have to pay for medical services out of your own pocket. And they just stopped the "executions for organs on demand" a few days ago. At least officially.

Are the services low cost at least? Are the prices similar to those in the States, or are they subsidized like here in Belgium? How "communist" can you be without some form of state subsidized medical care?

Originally Posted by Billi

No. For me it would be exploitation if he didn't have a choice. But he was not forced to sell his kidney. He made the first step, he wanted to sell his kidney. He spoiled his health for a gadget. And I don't know anything about the Chinese legal system but I assume that his parents had to give their consent to the operation.

Edit: The last sentence was wrong, the mother didn't know anything of it.

Well, is a 17 year old responsible enough to sell a kidney or not? First you said he was and then you assumed he needed parental permission. Something tells me you yourself are not too comfortable with your own position.

And fjtorres is spot on, the potential for exploitation of the most vulnerable is too high for most societies to accept some form of legal organ open market.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by VaporPunk

Are the services low cost at least? Are the prices similar to those in the States, or are they subsidized like here in Belgium? How "communist" can you be without some form of state subsidized medical care?

China is a one party system, but communist? That is in name only, at least internally (meaning when there are no foreign companies involved). They have a very purebred capitalistic system. And there is no free medical care. Services are not expensive (by Western standards), but local incomes are much lower, of course. So self medication is common -- let's go to the pharmacist and see what we can try for this illness. Medicines are cheap, but you never know what you are getting.

[VaporPunk]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

China is a one party system, but communist? That is in name only, at least internally (meaning when there are no foreign companies involved). They have a very purebred capitalistic system. And there is no free medical care. Services are not expensive (by Western standards), but local incomes are much lower, of course. So self medication is common -- let's go to the pharmacist and see what we can try for this illness. Medicines are cheap, but you never know what you are getting.

Thanks for the info, HansTWN. Note that I did put communist in quotes, since I really have no idea how to classify what China is. Its far too complex for simple labels.

[Billi]

Originally Posted by VaporPunk

Well, is a 17 year old responsible enough to sell a kidney or not? First you said he was and then you assumed he needed parental permission. Something tells me you yourself are not too comfortable with your own position.

I feel comfortable with my position. I've only brought in the parents because you all said he is too young.

I see it from a simple biological/medical point of view, and for me a gadget is not worth selling one's kidney. And even if he had gotten the full 35.000 Dollar I would have thought the same, that it is just stupid to spoil one's health in this way.

[VaporPunk]

Originally Posted by Billi

I feel comfortable with my position. I've only brought in the parents because you all said he is too young.

I see it from a simple biological/medical point of view, and for me a gadget is not worth selling one's kidney. And even if he had gotten the full 35.000 Dollar I would have thought the same, that it is just stupid to spoil one's health in this way.

This discussion is going to boil down to:
Do people have the right to be stupid and should the government stop them if they can?
There's room here for a reasonable debate about liberty/choice. I've stated my position in general, but I would think even the most radical libertarian would not support allowing a 17 year old to sell his or her organs for whatever price. I'm not trying to be an a$$ or (too) provocative, but how on earth can you justify that? I honestly do not mean to be insulting, I'm just baffled.

[xg4bx]

to paraphrase a chris rock joke 'how old is 17, really'.

you're old enough to operate a several thousand ton weapon down the highways and by-ways. you're a mere year away from being considered an adult; at said time you can vote and serve in the armed forces. you're easily old enough to be a parent to several children. (i think, though i may be wrong) you're old enough to abort said children without parental consent. 17 year olds today aren't wally cleaver and as long as theres no coercion i see no problem with it.

you cannot rescue people from stupidity and its a futile effort to even try. let people make stupid decisions and let the consequences forever be on their head. far too much time, effort and resources are spent on trying to save people from themselves.

i think sale of your organs should be absolutely legal. as should prostitution and even gentleman's duels as long as both parties are consenting.

[VaporPunk]

Originally Posted by xg4bx

to paraphrase a chris rock joke 'how old is 17, really'.

you're old enough to operate a several thousand ton weapon down the highways and by-ways. you're a mere year away from being considered an adult; at said time you can vote and serve in the armed forces. you're easily old enough to be a parent to several children. (i think, though i may be wrong) you're old enough to abort said children without parental consent. 17 year olds today aren't wally cleaver and as long as theres no coercion i see no problem with it.

you cannot rescue people from stupidity and its a futile effort to even try. let people make stupid decisions and let the consequences forever be on their head. far too much time, effort and resources are spent on trying to save people from themselves.

i think sale of your organs should be absolutely legal. as should prostitution and even gentleman's duels as long as both parties are consenting.

This is my main problem with libertarianism. Its a lot like communism, sounds great in theory put putting it into practice? While in general, I'd consider myself a social libertarian (probably most of us do) the main problem I have with this ideology is the practical side of things, putting aside the obvious moral problems.
How do we make sure there us no coercion if we legalize it? If selling organs became mainstream, we'd have to pass new laws, create a government organization (or expand an existing one) to regulate and enforce those new laws. Which means more taxes and bigger governments. Without that regulation, we'd have more dumb teenagers getting drunk & selling organs for an X-Box 360...And society again picks up the cost for letting those kids make their mistakes. Again, unless you propose letting them die.

Prostitution is a "choice" you can recover from. Lost kidneys and duels ain't.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by xg4bx

you're old enough to operate a several thousand ton weapon down the highways and by-ways.

Slightly puzzled by this one. Can you elaborate?

[VaporPunk]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Slightly puzzled by this one. Can you elaborate?

I assume he means driving a vehicle. For which you need a license, registration, insurance, and believe me, if you've ever driven in America, the roads are very well policed. And I think he and I would agree on this one; too much so!

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by VaporPunk

Thanks for the info, HansTWN. Note that I did put communist in quotes, since I really have no idea how to classify what China is. Its far too complex for simple labels.

Whatever you call it, old Karl wouldn't call it communism.