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Old 10-19-2019, 06:51 PM   #61
pwalker8
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Thanks for that.

Checking my records, I have 3 paperback Wagner novels.
Echoes Of Valor
Nightwinds
Road Of Kings, Conan The

With that last one having been read back in December 93.
I also thought I had read 'Echoes Of Valor', but that would predate my current records. I never did do an extensive 'have I read it or not', when I first started my paper records. Sometimes in passing when I felt sure I had, I gave a book a tick for read, but other than that it was too much of a hard endeavor, going by the number I had even back then.

I don't really have any records for 60s, 70s, 80s and start of the 90s. My current listing only goes back to September 92 ... that I backdated to by a few months from memory.

My paper records went through a few phases, pretty basic handwritten in the beginning, in scrapbooks, then typed up, then onto computer print outs. For a good while now I have kept a bit more detail, and just purely files backed up to PCs and devices etc.

I feel certain I have read at least one Kane story ... aside from Solomon Kane by REH ... possibly in some various authors collection.
Nightwinds is one of the Kane collections.
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Old 10-20-2019, 09:12 AM   #62
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Actually, I was saying that even as he grew older physically, Moorcock still tended to act like a teenager. I'm not sure he ever really matured much as a writer. Just my opinion, of course.

While Moorcock tended to stretch the Eternal Champion motif to most of his stories, I tend to think of it as the Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, von Beck and Erikose stories. I have all except the von Beck works, though I have read The War Hound and the World's Pain.
.
I guess you know him to a fair degree, but possibly not enough, as I don't see him as an immature writer ... just a limited one perhaps ... or too easily bored.

My recollection of things he has said in the past, leaves me with a memory that he felt forced to continue writing in the Elric vein, and it is never good to write under that condition. Other comments of his has led me to believe, that he doesn't truly value the potential of such stories or even really fully respect that genre. I'm not sure either, that he respected Robert E. Howard, for instance, as much as he should have, considering. So perhaps a bit of snobbery on his part, some bias.

In a way, he seems to deliberately avoid, what often makes other writers very popular, in the methods of writing he uses. He almost wears that like a badge of honor, but sometimes I feel it is to the detriment of some of his stories, makes some feel less complete and more an exercise or experiment.

That's my perception of it anyway. I could be wrong though, especially in regard to his writings in the last decade or two, which I am not really familiar with yet.

Please don't get me wrong though, as I do value him as a writer, even admire a bunch of his stuff. We are all flawed in some way.

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Old 10-20-2019, 09:32 AM   #63
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I guess you know him to a fair degree, but possibly not enough, as I don't see him as an immature writer ... just a limited one perhaps.

My recollection of things he has said in the past, leaves me with a memory that he felt forced to continue writing in the Elric vein, and it is never good to write under that condition. Other comments of his has led me to believe, that he doesn't truly value the potential of such stories or even really fully respect that genre. I'm not sure either, that he respected Robert E. Howard, for instance, as much as he should have, considering. So perhaps a bit of snobbery on his part, some bias.

In a way, he seems to deliberately avoid, what often makes other writers very popular, in the methods of writing he uses. He almost wears that like a badge of honor, but sometimes I feel it is to the detriment of some of his stories, makes some feel less complete and more an exercise or experiment.

That's my perception of it anyway. I could be wrong though, especially in regard to his writings in the last decade or two, which I am not really familiar with yet.
I'm also the one who didn't like Gloriana, which won awards, so a lot of it is a matter of taste. In general, when I say immature, I'm referring to his tendency to do things in one draft, things like that.
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Old 10-20-2019, 09:45 PM   #64
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He was famously dismissive of Tolkien, particularly in his essay likening LOTR to Winnie the Pooh, "Epic Pooh".
Thanks for that. I fail to appreciate the point of Moorcock's criticism. It seems to me that inspired fantasy depends on a connection to our childish selves, to wonder. On recently reading Frodo's leavinv the Shire I agree it reads very much like a classic child's story. And so what? Doesn't that give it it's power?

Without wishing to offend others, I do not tbink Moorcock is in the same league as Howard or Burroughs. I suspect his prolific writing was fueled by amphetimine use, and he knocked it out en masse, and it shows. I'm also surprised to read how high-brow and snobbish he seems in that article. An elevated tone for someone who banged out poor quality pulp.

Returning the fairt tale (or mythic), I was reading Peter Pan and I was struck that Pan might well be the model for Tolkien's elves.

I'm reading Hoffman's the Sandman and I'm struck how similar its style is to The Nightland.

So I agree with Moorcock's insight, but not his ctiticism. Fueling a powerful fantasy work on a child's fairy story is not a failing. It may be a necessity. And those old fairy stories, unlike the sanitized works of today, contained much that was dark...

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Old 10-20-2019, 09:58 PM   #65
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Yep, and they are gems ... like lights in the darkness.

I did enjoy that trilogy by Eric Van Lustbader, and must read the later sequels some time ... I have them, have had them for ages. Alas I like too many authors and not enough hours in a life for reading.
Donnie Darko...

The later Sunset Warrior books ain't bad. Lustbader can write. He can really write, and does beautiful exoticism. I recently read the start of I think the Dai San. It's all about Shang Hang Sei the city. It's really good. A forgotten gem. But the later books without Ronin definately lack that center.
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Old 10-21-2019, 06:32 AM   #66
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Donnie Darko...

The later Sunset Warrior books ain't bad. Lustbader can write. He can really write, and does beautiful exoticism. I recently read the start of I think the Dai San. It's all about Shang Hang Sei the city. It's really good. A forgotten gem. But the later books without Ronin definately lack that center.
I'm only vaguely aware of Donnie Darko ... perhaps have something on video.

I started with Lustbader's fantasy series, then read several of his Ninja based novels. He is a damn good writer and blend of East meets West ... at least for his earlier stuff. I've not read any of his recent thriller novels yet (Bourne etc).
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Old 10-21-2019, 06:34 AM   #67
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I'm also the one who didn't like Gloriana, which won awards, so a lot of it is a matter of taste. In general, when I say immature, I'm referring to his tendency to do things in one draft, things like that.
Unprofessional, Uncaring or Lazy might be better words.
Though I guess Undeveloped (or Under-developed) is another one and similar to Immature.
So fair enough.

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Old 10-21-2019, 06:58 AM   #68
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Returning the fairy tale (or mythic), I was reading Peter Pan and I was struck that Pan might well be the model for Tolkien's elves.
My recollection is that Tolkien went to great lengths to disassociate his elves from the traditional fairy type ones ... even or especially dark ones like Pan can be.

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I'm reading Hoffman's the Sandman and I'm struck how similar its style is to The Nightland.
I loved The Night Land by William Hope Hodgson, which I presume you are referring to?

The world lost a great author when he got killed so young, during the War.

I was not aware of how far back the Sandman went, very interesting, thanks for that. Not familiar with Hoffman either.

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So I agree with Moorcock's insight, but not his ctiticism. Fueling a powerful fantasy work on a child's fairy story is not a failing. It may be a necessity. And those old fairy stories, unlike the sanitized works of today, contained much that was dark...
I am currently reading the first Witcher novel (The Last Wish), nearly finished, and I am struck by a few parallels, with both Elric and Conan ... and a heavy dose of the old dark fairy tales we all grew up with. The author has done a great blending and reinvention, and made it seem all his own.

For those who don't know - While 'Geralt of Rivia' is an albino and sword master, plus he can cast spells, he is not really an anti-hero in the vein of Elric or even like Conan in that regard, though I find him more like Conan than Elric. In fact, I don't think you can really call him an anti-hero. Geralt has two swords, neither of them magic, one just being Silver and the other Iron from a meteorite. He is a monster killer for hire, and sometimes those monsters come in human form. Any magic is really in him and how he was nurtured and taught. He can see in the dark for instance, and has lightning reflexes well beyond a humans. He is described as some kind of mutation.

Despite how many in the stories judge him, he serves good, but is often forced to choose the lesser of two evils ... hence much of the negative Witcher reputation.

Anyway, for those who like Elric, Conan and the like, he is a very mature approach to Sword & Fantasy. I like the very deep thinking that often transpires ... and the related sense of mystery. Don't judge a book by its cover so-to-speak.

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Old 10-22-2019, 01:11 PM   #69
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Personally I think there are much better works of fantasy that are less recognized (The Sunset Warrior trilogy).
I read the first book of the Sunset Warrior trilogy and just didn't like it. Here's a review I wrote at the time. I wonder if I was too dismissive of it? (Though I do remember just not caring for it at all.)
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Old 10-22-2019, 03:36 PM   #70
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I read the first book of the Sunset Warrior trilogy and just didn't like it. Here's a review I wrote at the time. I wonder if I was too dismissive of it? (Though I do remember just not caring for it at all.)
I didn't care for it either. Different strokes for different folks and all.
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Old 10-23-2019, 12:19 AM   #71
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Indeed, each to their own. Personally I think Lustbader's early fantasy contained the same natural inspiration as Howard's Conan, and Lustbader was much better at maintaining that quality across a full novel than Howard.

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THE Scarred Man enters Sha'angh'sei at sunset. He pauses before the towering cinnabar escarpment of the western gate and turns in his dusty saddle. Above him, a pair of ebon carrion birds spread their grotesquely long wings, hovering, startlingly set off by the flare of the sky. Piled clouds riding like chariots of crimson fire obscure for long moments the bloated ablate of the sun as it sinks slothfully toward the heights of the city already lost within the thickening haze. It is a unique mark of the sunsets in Sha'angh'sei that the city itself and the land all around it is first engulfed by the purest crimson, sliding, as the sun disappears behind the man-made facade into the amethyst and violet which heralds the night.
I think good prose is like a distinct vocalist. It's a bit like Harrison's Viriconium, but I dunno, I find Harrison seems to speak wonderfully, but says not much at the end.

Anyway, each to their own.
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Old 10-23-2019, 12:28 AM   #72
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I do recall now Elric's anti-hero nature, how no matter he wanted tondo good, everything he touched was cursed. That's what stayed with me. He is truly cursed. Moorcock did a good job on his character. Elric does linger. A masterpiece of fantasy, when the stories were Moorcock's best (Stormbringer IMO)

@timboli. I'll check out the Witcher. I do like Eastern European stuff. Thanks.

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Old 10-23-2019, 10:38 AM   #73
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Indeed, each to their own. Personally I think Lustbader's early fantasy contained the same natural inspiration as Howard's Conan, and Lustbader was much better at maintaining that quality across a full novel than Howard.
Well aside from two very different writers writing in different eras, I thought the few novels Howard did were pretty good. I expect they may have gotten even better, but tragically as most of us know and lament, his life ended way too soon.

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I think good prose is like a distinct vocalist. It's a bit like Harrison's Viriconium, but I dunno, I find Harrison seems to speak wonderfully, but says not much at the end.
I like quite a bit of Harry Harrison, including his Viriconium novels, and especially his Eden series and The Stainless Steel Rat .... another great anti-hero.

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Anyway, each to their own.
Indeed.
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