Sigil for Linux users

roger64 · 06-19-2016, 02:20 AM

Hi

I am not a disgrunted Linux user. I do not speak for myself because, thanks to the brilliancy of eschwartz's work, I can use right now the latest and greatest version of Sigil 0.9.6. on ArchLinux (screenshot). However some years ago, the need to compile this complex piece of software kept me a long time away from Sigil and I think it's a pity.

I read these last weeks some news about new flavours of "universal" binaries in the Linux world (though these projects are months or even years old).
1. - LibreOffice, with Red Hat backing produced a flatpak version, though it still seem to suffer from some deficiencies compared to the "official" one (among them, for me, no Java support).
2. - Ubuntu drummed up the arrival of snap packages and even announced that they would be available for some other distros. I noted - for the time being - no support for Nvidia proprietary drivers.
3. - AppImages have been around for some time. They catched my attention when I downloaded quite a complex graphical piece of software packaged with this format (you can see me coming

) named Krita.
Krita is at the level of Gimp or Inkscape but up to now, despite its recognized technical qualities, if you wished to use it, you had to install half a ton of KDE dependencies which was frankly off-putting. Now I have been able to make do with a basic 75 MB install, which seems a fair size for a first time install. It runs fine on ArchLinux as a standalone application. No need for any previous software.

Forgive me because I am absolutely not a technician but I can't help thinking that if Sigil followed Krita's path, it would certainly make life easier for many Linux users.

DiapDealer · 06-19-2016, 06:09 AM

We had this discussion with AppImage's creator on Github and are not interested, at this time, in providing an official Linux binary using AppImage. Nor are we willing to endorse a third-party-created Linux binary. Thanks for your interest, though.

KevinH · 06-19-2016, 09:07 AM

The issue is that Sigil has a very small developer team of just 2 people so supporting a new official binary package is not really doable. When you combine this with official repos like Arch doing such a good job packaging Sigil and the well-documented build instructions that exist currently, and the fact that a non-repo third party binary could have anything in it, we felt it was not a good idea.

roger64 · 06-19-2016, 09:30 AM

Thanks for your replies .

latepaul · 06-19-2016, 09:44 AM

Coincidentally I read this this morning. It seems Snappy and Flatpack at least are nowhere near production ready.

roger64 · 07-10-2016, 05:13 AM

@latepaul
Which leaves us with a third choice.

Here a recent and detailed article from the 4th of July by Jesse Smith (Distrowatch) which confirm your comment about Snappy and Flatpak and commends AppImage.
https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?i...160704#opinion

KevinH · 07-10-2016, 12:39 PM

The biggest problem is not the format to choose (although AppImage apps can get quite large - double the size of Windows and Mac versions in some cases, and the others are not really shipping - yet), it is the lack of developer time.

Since serious harm can be done by injecting unwanted code into released binaries, the members of the developer team must be trusted to not do those sorts of things. Other volunteers who provide patches and things via git will have their code reviewed before committing it to the tree and they do not release "official" binaries so the level of trust needed for helping out in that way is not as critical as it is for those who make official binary releases.

So Sigil would need a new "trusted" developer to step forward to volunteer to support this new binary, track down bugs, make release builds, etc. And it can take years to develop that shared trust.

I have known and worked together with DiapDealer for many years now on multiple projects and so we have developed trust in each other. I had worked previously on many different open source projects and was previously maintainer of the lingucomponent project at OpenOffice.org and still worked directly with John for almost a year before he decided to pass along the reins to us. Furthermore, I registered as an official Apple Developer and pay the fees so that I can sign my binaries helping users to know they are mine. If any problems were found with those, Apple can easily find me and revoke my registration which would prevent any binaries I made from installing and working on Mac platforms

eschwartz and the other official distribution maintainers have the trust of their linux distribution organization that help makes Linux work and their distribution signs their binaries for release (similar to what we do for the Mac ones) They track down and fix build issues and bug reports that are specific to their distribution.

So either some trusted organization volunteers (for free) to provide us an auto build system that includes one of those package systems and all of the cloud support behind it to keep it secure (highly unlikely since Sigil is so specialized)

... or ...

we need one new, dedicated, trusted developer to volunteer to support that platform/package, just as DiapDealer does now for Windows (and supporting building on Linux) and I do the same for the Mac platform (and I have a LinuxMint 18 set-up now for helping with Linux specific bugs).

So as soon as this Linux package system argument has died down and selected a clear "winner" and someone trusted comes forward to volunteer to help, we will add support for it. I just don't see that happening anytime soon.

Meanwhile the need for it gets less and less given the new rolling style Linux distributions like Arch and the excellent support provided by eschwartz and others.

Hope this makes things clearer.

KevinH

roger64 · 07-10-2016, 02:18 PM

@Kevin

Sorry to take away again a piece of your precious time. I just could not resist posting this after reading the woes encountered by one Ubuntu user trying to compile.

It seems wiser to keep a door open and make this a matter of opportunity (lack of a trusted developer) than to give a stark rebuttal (never a foreign blob).

DiapDealer · 07-10-2016, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roger64

I just could not resist posting this after reading the woes encountered by one Ubuntu user trying to compile.

Keep in mind that for every one that struggles mightily with compiling Sigil, there's at least several that breeze right through it with little trouble (and never mention it).

Please don't bump this thread every time a Linux user has a compilation question/problem.

eschwartz · 07-10-2016, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinH

eschwartz and the other official distribution maintainers have the trust of their linux distribution organization that help makes Linux work and their distribution signs their binaries for release (similar to what we do for the Mac ones) They track down and fix build issues and bug reports that are specific to their distribution.

Actually, what I do is share the build scripts used to compile the software. Some distros are better than others at making it easy for users to trivially roll their own packages. The barrier to entry is low.
I'd be quite overjoyed if I could find a way to build (and let others build) stuff with the same ease on, say Ubuntu. But the barrier to entry is higher there...

And I am not official anything, though I appreciate the compliment anyway.

...

My thoughts on the matter -- Snaps and Flatpak are still far away from being easy to use for the developer, even should they want to.

And Sigil doesn't move nearly as fast as, say, calibre, so relying on the now widespread availability of Sigil in distro repositories is sufficient for the majority use case.

Seeing this repeatedly brought up strikes me as somewhat bizarre.

kovidgoyal · 07-10-2016, 10:30 PM

Just FYI -- I am in the process of creating code to build calibre and all its dependencies on all three platforms automatically. It uses docker for the linux builds and VMs with just the development tools installed for the other OSes.

https://github.com/kovidgoyal/build-calibre

You could fork the repo and use it to create Sigil packages quite easily. You just need to replace the linux/freeze.py script with something that creates a sigil bundle instead, with all the dependencies already built and taken care of by the repo. About 500 lines of python code, though for Sigil the replacement will likely be smaller, since Sigil is much less complex than calibre.

You'd also need to make to change the scripts used to build python to build python 3 and Qt to include those components of Qt that Sigil needs, but that should be about it.

Note that this is not intended to pressure you to create Sigil packages, just to point out a way you could piggyback on my work, to reduce the burden of maintenance, if you decide to do it in the future.

DiapDealer · 07-10-2016, 11:18 PM

I will certainly take a look. Thanks Kovid!

06-19-2016, 02:20 AM	#1
roger64 Wizard Posts: 2,608 Karma: 3000161 Join Date: Jan 2009 Device: Kindle PW3 (wifi)	Sigil for Linux users Hi I am not a disgrunted Linux user. I do not speak for myself because, thanks to the brilliancy of eschwartz's work, I can use right now the latest and greatest version of Sigil 0.9.6. on ArchLinux (screenshot). However some years ago, the need to compile this complex piece of software kept me a long time away from Sigil and I think it's a pity. I read these last weeks some news about new flavours of "universal" binaries in the Linux world (though these projects are months or even years old). 1. - LibreOffice, with Red Hat backing produced a flatpak version, though it still seem to suffer from some deficiencies compared to the "official" one (among them, for me, no Java support). 2. - Ubuntu drummed up the arrival of snap packages and even announced that they would be available for some other distros. I noted - for the time being - no support for Nvidia proprietary drivers. 3. - AppImages have been around for some time. They catched my attention when I downloaded quite a complex graphical piece of software packaged with this format (you can see me coming ) named Krita. Krita is at the level of Gimp or Inkscape but up to now, despite its recognized technical qualities, if you wished to use it, you had to install half a ton of KDE dependencies which was frankly off-putting. Now I have been able to make do with a basic 75 MB install, which seems a fair size for a first time install. It runs fine on ArchLinux as a standalone application. No need for any previous software. Forgive me because I am absolutely not a technician but I can't help thinking that if Sigil followed Krita's path, it would certainly make life easier for many Linux users. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by roger64; 06-19-2016 at 02:47 AM.

06-19-2016, 09:30 AM	#4
roger64 Wizard Posts: 2,608 Karma: 3000161 Join Date: Jan 2009 Device: Kindle PW3 (wifi)	Thanks for your replies . Last edited by roger64; 06-19-2016 at 09:55 AM.

07-10-2016, 05:13 AM	#6
roger64 Wizard Posts: 2,608 Karma: 3000161 Join Date: Jan 2009 Device: Kindle PW3 (wifi)	@latepaul Which leaves us with a third choice. Here a recent and detailed article from the 4th of July by Jesse Smith (Distrowatch) which confirm your comment about Snappy and Flatpak and commends AppImage. https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?i...160704#opinion Last edited by roger64; 07-10-2016 at 05:23 AM.

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06-19-2016, 06:09 AM	#2
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 27,552 Karma: 193191846 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	We had this discussion with AppImage's creator on Github and are not interested, at this time, in providing an official Linux binary using AppImage. Nor are we willing to endorse a third-party-created Linux binary. Thanks for your interest, though.

06-19-2016, 09:07 AM	#3
KevinH Sigil Developer Posts: 7,645 Karma: 5433388 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: many	The issue is that Sigil has a very small developer team of just 2 people so supporting a new official binary package is not really doable. When you combine this with official repos like Arch doing such a good job packaging Sigil and the well-documented build instructions that exist currently, and the fact that a non-repo third party binary could have anything in it, we felt it was not a good idea.

06-19-2016, 09:44 AM	#5
latepaul Wizard Posts: 1,264 Karma: 10203040 Join Date: Dec 2011 Device: a variety (mostly kindles and kobos)	Coincidentally I read this this morning. It seems Snappy and Flatpack at least are nowhere near production ready.

07-10-2016, 12:39 PM	#7
KevinH Sigil Developer Posts: 7,645 Karma: 5433388 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: many	The biggest problem is not the format to choose (although AppImage apps can get quite large - double the size of Windows and Mac versions in some cases, and the others are not really shipping - yet), it is the lack of developer time. Since serious harm can be done by injecting unwanted code into released binaries, the members of the developer team must be trusted to not do those sorts of things. Other volunteers who provide patches and things via git will have their code reviewed before committing it to the tree and they do not release "official" binaries so the level of trust needed for helping out in that way is not as critical as it is for those who make official binary releases. So Sigil would need a new "trusted" developer to step forward to volunteer to support this new binary, track down bugs, make release builds, etc. And it can take years to develop that shared trust. I have known and worked together with DiapDealer for many years now on multiple projects and so we have developed trust in each other. I had worked previously on many different open source projects and was previously maintainer of the lingucomponent project at OpenOffice.org and still worked directly with John for almost a year before he decided to pass along the reins to us. Furthermore, I registered as an official Apple Developer and pay the fees so that I can sign my binaries helping users to know they are mine. If any problems were found with those, Apple can easily find me and revoke my registration which would prevent any binaries I made from installing and working on Mac platforms eschwartz and the other official distribution maintainers have the trust of their linux distribution organization that help makes Linux work and their distribution signs their binaries for release (similar to what we do for the Mac ones) They track down and fix build issues and bug reports that are specific to their distribution. So either some trusted organization volunteers (for free) to provide us an auto build system that includes one of those package systems and all of the cloud support behind it to keep it secure (highly unlikely since Sigil is so specialized) ... or ... we need one new, dedicated, trusted developer to volunteer to support that platform/package, just as DiapDealer does now for Windows (and supporting building on Linux) and I do the same for the Mac platform (and I have a LinuxMint 18 set-up now for helping with Linux specific bugs). So as soon as this Linux package system argument has died down and selected a clear "winner" and someone trusted comes forward to volunteer to help, we will add support for it. I just don't see that happening anytime soon. Meanwhile the need for it gets less and less given the new rolling style Linux distributions like Arch and the excellent support provided by eschwartz and others. Hope this makes things clearer. KevinH

07-10-2016, 02:18 PM	#8
roger64 Wizard Posts: 2,608 Karma: 3000161 Join Date: Jan 2009 Device: Kindle PW3 (wifi)	@Kevin Sorry to take away again a piece of your precious time. I just could not resist posting this after reading the woes encountered by one Ubuntu user trying to compile. It seems wiser to keep a door open and make this a matter of opportunity (lack of a trusted developer) than to give a stark rebuttal (never a foreign blob).

07-10-2016, 10:30 PM	#11
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 43,860 Karma: 22666666 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	Just FYI -- I am in the process of creating code to build calibre and all its dependencies on all three platforms automatically. It uses docker for the linux builds and VMs with just the development tools installed for the other OSes. https://github.com/kovidgoyal/build-calibre You could fork the repo and use it to create Sigil packages quite easily. You just need to replace the linux/freeze.py script with something that creates a sigil bundle instead, with all the dependencies already built and taken care of by the repo. About 500 lines of python code, though for Sigil the replacement will likely be smaller, since Sigil is much less complex than calibre. You'd also need to make to change the scripts used to build python to build python 3 and Qt to include those components of Qt that Sigil needs, but that should be about it. Note that this is not intended to pressure you to create Sigil packages, just to point out a way you could piggyback on my work, to reduce the burden of maintenance, if you decide to do it in the future.

07-10-2016, 11:18 PM	#12
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 27,552 Karma: 193191846 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	I will certainly take a look. Thanks Kovid!