Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book Readers > Onyx Boox

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-11-2018, 12:15 AM   #106
Hrafn
Evangelist
Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Hrafn's Avatar
 
Posts: 451
Karma: 687194
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New Zealand
Device: Onyx Boox Kepler Pro, Samsung Galaxy Tab S 10.5
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
First patent (when at MIT) in 1996 on the basic technology (white particles in microcapsules with dark fluid). E-Ink incorporated in mid 1997. First commercial display was in 2007, with the improved Pearl in 2010, Carta in 2013 and Carta HD in 2014.

So ten years from incorporating to first commercial product for E-Ink.

In comparison, LiquaVista started in 2006, and appears to have now been shut down (after 12 years) without ever releasing a commercial product.

So from incorporation in 2012, ClearInk has a few years yet before they should be written off.
I would suggest that E-Ink were facing very different market forces that both forced them and allowed them to develop slower -- the former being the lack of a market, until they themselves created one, the latter being the lack of competing technologies. This does not mean that ClearInk cannot succeed, but does mean that 'threading the needle' will be difficult, and likely to become more so with each passing year.

Does a viable niche exist between E-Ink and LCD? Maybe. But each improvement on cost, clarity and power consumption on either side shrinks that potential niche just a little bit more.
Hrafn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 05:33 AM   #107
pdurrant
The Grand Mouse 高貴的老鼠
pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
pdurrant's Avatar
 
Posts: 55,162
Karma: 207737824
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Norfolk, England
Device: Kindle Voyage, Yotaphone 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrafn View Post
Does a viable niche exist between E-Ink and LCD? Maybe. But each improvement on cost, clarity and power consumption on either side shrinks that potential niche just a little bit more.
I don't think there's a viable niche between E-Ink and LCD. I would expect a better low-power reflective display technology to entirely replace E-Ink displays.


E-Ink didn't come into a completely fresh market area. There were already low-power reflective displays, but they just weren't very good. E-Ink pretty much killed reflective LCD displays except in the very lowest priced items.

Last edited by pdurrant; 11-11-2018 at 05:35 AM.
pdurrant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 07:44 AM   #108
mdp
Wizard
mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 1,225
Karma: 4689573
Join Date: Jul 2013
Device: none
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrafn View Post
E-Ink [...] the lack of a market, until they themselves created one
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrafn View Post
Does a viable niche exist between E-Ink and LCD? Maybe. But each improvement on cost, clarity and power consumption on either side shrinks that potential niche just a little bit more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
I don't think there's a viable niche between E-Ink and LCD. I would expect a better low-power reflective display technology to entirely replace E-Ink displays
We had an up to dire need for solving the problems patched by this technology, independently of its existence: they [E-Ink] found a market.

And to solve the problem of visualizing data, talking about niches seems to assume that «E-Ink and LCD» are amply satisfactory technologies. They are not.
  • LCD is absurd to use: it fights against environmental lighting. Conceptually, we had done better with paper. OLED is already much smarter, preserving the blacks as "off" - the effect is already much more fitting to expectations (and it is probably close to being the after-dusk technology) -, but still falls in the category of the "[we had no better than] torchlights".
  • E-Ink's EPD has plentiful limitations: not just the low refresh rate, but also that the amount of energy to change state is substantial.

I am not sure that these technologies still allow linear improvements.

Now, the current evidence of the long-term direction is towards * heightened mobility and the need to access information anytime (so anywhere), and * increased use of video as a format to spread information - while multi-source information remains (on the erudite's desk more books remained open, in the centuries) the paradigm (ALT+TAB, Hypertext). Existing widespread technologies fall short, for either reason.

Natural-light friendly, high refresh, color, efficient smart low power consumption, good visual quality: this is still missed, and this is the goal. Of course, who gets the better placement on this vectors and on the implicit ones (cheap etc.) eats up the rest in function of the intended use.

Last edited by mdp; 11-11-2018 at 07:56 AM.
mdp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 08:13 AM   #109
pdurrant
The Grand Mouse 高貴的老鼠
pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
pdurrant's Avatar
 
Posts: 55,162
Karma: 207737824
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Norfolk, England
Device: Kindle Voyage, Yotaphone 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdp View Post
Natural-light friendly, high refresh, color, efficient smart low power consumption, good visual quality: this is still missed, and this is the goal.
Absolutely. And I thought it would already be here.
pdurrant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2018, 10:57 PM   #110
Hrafn
Evangelist
Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hrafn ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Hrafn's Avatar
 
Posts: 451
Karma: 687194
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New Zealand
Device: Onyx Boox Kepler Pro, Samsung Galaxy Tab S 10.5
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
I would expect a better low-power reflective display technology to entirely replace E-Ink displays.
  1. All color reflective technology to date has worked through placing a colorising filter over B&W technology. Given the inherent complexity of baking multiple colors directly into the the reflective layer, this is unlikely to change any time soon.
  2. This means that any color reflective technology, for the foreseeable future will be inferior to B&W in terms of resolution, clarity and cost.
  3. There is a large market for eReaders for reading predominantly text-based books, particularly genre fiction, that is better met by a higher resolution, clearer, cheaper B&W display than a lower resolution, less-clear, more expensive color technology.
  4. This means that this B&W-dominated niche will continue to exist for the foreseeable future.
Will displays continue to improve? Most certainly. But the tightening R&D budgets mean that E-Ink's dominance is unlikely to be dethroned any time soon (building a better product costs).


Quote:
E-Ink didn't come into a completely fresh market area. There were already low-power reflective displays, but they just weren't very good. E-Ink pretty much killed reflective LCD displays except in the very lowest priced items.
Existence of technology does not equate to existence of a (substantive) market. The Wright brothers invented powered flight, not commercial air travel (their occasional marketing stunt notwithstanding). The existence of a substantive/'mass' market generally requires a mature technology, as well as considerable effort in marketing it.

Also, I misstated, slightly. It was not so much e-Ink creating the market as Amazon creating the market using E-Ink's technology. Compare sales levels before and after the advent of Amazon-EInk, and I'd be very surprised if they were not multiple orders of magnitude different.
Hrafn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2018, 11:43 AM   #111
mdp
Wizard
mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mdp ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 1,225
Karma: 4689573
Join Date: Jul 2013
Device: none
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrafn View Post
color reflective technology [...] through placing a colorising filter [...] for the foreseeable future will be inferior to B&W in terms of resolution, clarity and cost [...] There is a large market for eReaders for reading predominantly text-based books, particularly genre fiction [...] this B&W-dominated niche will continue to exist for the foreseeable future.
[...] E-Ink's dominance is unlikely to be dethroned any time soon
I don't think anyone is betting on Triton's basic variations.
The argument, as I read it, would be that "Fiction readers are already plentifully satisfied by EPD - EPD will remain the dominant choice for them". Which is good - and of course no technology which is useful in some context should vanish.
But those lucky sons-of-a-saddle, oh I remember when I myself devoured fiction too, sweet were the times, represent a component of all the "mobile readers", roughly countable in billions.
It is probably worth mentioning that the choice is not univocal: one has LCD, OLED, EPD, paper...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrafn View Post
The existence of a substantive/'mass' market generally requires a mature technology
The judgement of "maturity" is somehow subjective. But anyway here in the big topic the bet is not on the stock market (on the sales of Displays Inc.), it is on the advantage of availability to the individual "early" adopters.
(Edit: well, there are really both bets. Myself, I am interested in getting my own device.)

Last edited by mdp; 11-18-2018 at 11:48 AM.
mdp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Onyx pls stop working on Android 4 and single core fgdas Onyx Boox 6 06-07-2017 07:00 PM
Onyx, please stop indexing HTML files! Orphee Onyx Boox 5 01-31-2015 09:22 AM
Onyx Boox M96 - What ALL e-Ink ereaders should aspire to dpayment Onyx Boox 27 12-17-2014 05:15 PM
Onyx E-Ink Smartphone Launching Today! Timoleon News 102 09-25-2014 08:18 AM
Onyx Now Working on a Lighted E-ink eReader Booxtor Onyx Boox 101 11-07-2012 12:08 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:51 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.