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Old 07-17-2017, 04:00 PM   #31
tommyer
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Please allow me to be the first to thank you, for your well noted remark, and, so do you work at an Embassy or at a Consulate? (I liked both the flattery and its preparing a bathos)
Gee, you got me right there plus I learned a new word. So giving thanks is on my side as well. In issue-specific forums, esp. about tech, I noted that communication of facts and information can be very efficient as in less words and density of facts and info as high as possible. You see, it is quite the opposite of the way I write here writing out everything and, shame on me, even beyond that, more words that do not provide additional meaning. Another example of redundance would be this sharp sentence of mine: "I use a reference management program called Citavi and I guess it will not work on it directly which would make for this combination to be unworkable and useless."

I really try to take heed of that recent comment here about time being scarce. Think that was even you MDP. But I will always have an easy excuse: English is not my first language.

My only experience with Boox devices (s. sig) left the impression on me that some of them are, or at least were, indeed "half-baked" products as another forum participant commented recently. With a grain of salt, nothing worked in the device but the most fundamental tasks: audio to begin with, dicts useless, search function "bumpy" and unreliable, but also most of the "cropping" features, a concept I also did not have the ability to understand, at least not from my own experience. Then again, I did not know about updating so may be that would have enabled some of the functions.

So I felt it worked in a way I would describe as "buggy" and I had to adapt to the device, work around one or two pecularities, and do without some things. I try to speak about the firmware, putting hardware problems one side of which there were as well. Then I noticed that the apps for the different formats ( pdf, epub, mobi, djvu and so on) all had different functionality with pdf being the one where you could do the most. It all seemed complicated and the icons were so tiny, it was like you had to learn how to hit each in a special way and place to get what you want at the first go. The upside was that I exercised the joints of my index finger and improved its flexibility.

All of this is intended to speak to my comment on usability.

So this is obviously the bias of someone who didn't know tech and wanted to read and work with pdfs on a 6'' device and wished it to be bigger. All the same, I fell in love with my device despite its shortcomings until its sad demise.

With tech, things are cursed, at least for me, and I think it's not so different with tablets. It is sometimes hard to talk about specifics and even harder to understand or imagine things only in theory while not having the device in front of you and having never worked with such a device for a long enough time. Money of course is another constraint.

On a final note, I admire people like there are many of on this board who know how to get tech things going in many ways. Thanks to this forum and relatedly to Youtube I also came to learn about the possibility of using E-ink screen as monitor - now one of my mid-term goals. Somebody on this board sold a Dasung device recently, but the offer has ended already. And I am not sure if I could make this work, still many open questions, uncharted waters to me. Plus I am very suspicious of second hand deals, esp. if they are on Ebay. It's sometimes hard to tell what's going on there. But this has nothing to do with the forum participant who sold the dasung recently.

Last edited by tommyer; 07-17-2017 at 11:05 PM. Reason: Not 'privilege' but 'ability'
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:36 PM   #32
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"half-baked", is exactly my feel with Onyx Boox devices, i have Sony PRS-T2 and T3, these people know how full baked theirs devices before sell them to us.

Onyx Boox make hardware well "baked" , helas not their software!
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:44 PM   #33
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i have Sony PRS-T2 and T3, these people know how full baked theirs devices before sell them to us.
Yes, I also had a Sony PRS, but I could not even change the font size properly (because they hard coded the sizes like 8pt, 16pt, 32pt, 48pt, 72pt!) ❕❗߹‼❢

So, they are generally quite polished, and when they fail you cannot fix them.

FAIL.
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:05 PM   #34
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But honestly, I am not sure that usability is the problem with Onyx firmware. I think it is to consistently hone occasional or structural faults. For example: they should be committed to verify before firmware release that the most important software applications (for the OS version chosen in the ongoing phase) work flawlessly.
Yeah, I understand that as well. You mean that's a problem, that's where they lack: "consistently hone occasional or structural faults".

I mean it's nice that it is kind of a open system and improvement comes not only by adding apps (if the most important ones did work...) but also by improving or adding functions of the default apps through firmware updates ( not only OS upgrade --> Android). I do not even know if the manufacturers of tablets do this kind of firmware updating, i.e. beyond Android upgrade.
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Old 07-18-2017, 07:57 PM   #35
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Yes. I have a 10.5" iPad and it's great for PDFs. Far more portable than a 13" device.
You used the 9.7 previously, right? I'm still on that model but have been curious about the new one. What are the significant difference for you? Asking because we both use them mainly for academic work.
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:33 AM   #36
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You used the 9.7 previously, right? I'm still on that model but have been curious about the new one. What are the significant difference for you? Asking because we both use them mainly for academic work.
If you have an iPad Pro 9.7", there's not a lot in it, but I had a 9.7" iPad Air 2, and the differences between that and the newer iPad Pro are considerable: much faster CPU, better screen, better audio, better camera, and of course compatibility with things like the Apple Pencil. The extra 0.8" screen size may not sound like much, but it does make a significant difference when it comes to reading PDFs.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:17 AM   #37
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Yes, I also had a Sony PRS, but I could not even change the font size properly (because they hard coded the sizes like 8pt, 16pt, 32pt, 48pt, 72pt!) ❕❗߹‼❢

So, they are generally quite polished, and when they fail you cannot fix them.

FAIL.
You are speaking as developer, sorry i am a reader only , mostly epub format, time to time pdf document.
when i select a word in reading action, j hope to find the right dictionnary, the right slection (software has to lemmatization, as "j'ai eu '', the slection is eu "verbe avoir , that's PRS detect it very well as "verbe avoir", not on any onyx boox device just say "there is no data", this is just an example amid thousands of "half baked software"!!
I agree that Sony has a strange commercial policy!
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Old 07-19-2017, 11:50 AM   #38
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You are speaking as developer, sorry i am a reader only , [...]
when i select a word in reading action,[...] this is just an example amid thousands of "half baked software"!!
I write as a VERY demanding user, believe me, and I know that products are imperfect so I want a considerable chance to be there that they can and will be fixed. In the case of the Sony PRS - which looked like it had a very high quality control that miserably failed in spots under non-quality related constraints (compromises in project definition) - some people produced modded firmware, and still it remained impossible to modify a /very basic/ usability feature like font size - which could then be changed as a base size but the options remained something like *only* 100% | 150% | 200% | 300% | 400% on that base size. Clever granularity. I repeat: even with hacking it was impossible to fix in that firmware a "mid-sized to way big to huge!?!".

Already knowing that something may (will most probably) need to be fixed, I require the flexibility to be there. The device must potentially do what *I* intend, rigorously.

Since you will meet "half baked software", the chief workaround is to be able to install other software - using consolidated environments, recreating those you are proficient with, testing new ones etc.

"Appliances" (toasters etc.) perform maybe complex processes but with simple and specialized outcomes. Following that, they can be relatively closed.
Multi-purpose devices cannot be appliances. These devices are meant to be multi-purpose devices. Multi-purpose devices in general follow the traditional scheme of having an OS that accepts installing software. Which gives you choice.

Last edited by mdp; 07-19-2017 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 07-19-2017, 11:57 AM   #39
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Multi-purpose devices in general follow the traditional scheme of having an OS that accepts installing software. Which gives you choice.
There are generally compromises that result from flexibility, however. For example, eInk devices running Android tend to have a significantly shorter battery life than a dedicated eInk book reader, because the reader can "sleep" between page turns, which the Android device can't do.
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Old 07-19-2017, 12:04 PM   #40
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If you have an iPad Pro 9.7", there's not a lot in it, but I had a 9.7" iPad Air 2, and the differences between that and the newer iPad Pro are considerable: much faster CPU, better screen, better audio, better camera, and of course compatibility with things like the Apple Pencil. The extra 0.8" screen size may not sound like much, but it does make a significant difference when it comes to reading PDFs.
Much appreciated, the difference between 9.7 and 10.5 aren't as significant as I feared then. Obviously the larger screen is tempting but the 9.7 just turned one year old, I think it can manage another year?
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Old 07-19-2017, 12:13 PM   #41
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There are generally compromises that result from flexibility, however. For example, eInk devices running Android tend to have a significantly shorter battery life than a dedicated eInk book reader, because the reader can "sleep" between page turns, which the Android device can't do.
Absolutely. Android is /per se/ not specialized for EPD use - maybe some fixes can come from the firmware developer, maybe the Android project will reckon that there are "markets" that may require expanding some areas.

It seems that Android is the only choice at the moment...
Ubuntu Touch: «The project was started in 2011, but on 5 April 2017 Mark Shuttleworth announced that the project would terminate due to lack of market interest.[6][7] The project was then picked up by the UBports» (Wikipedia)
Firefox OS: «in September 2016 [Mozilla] announced the end of development» (Wikipedia)
The only alternative - which realistically must include software availability - would be to port a desktop Linux. I have never collected information on why and where exactly this would fail.
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Old 07-19-2017, 12:17 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by mdp View Post
I write as a VERY demanding user, believe me, and I know that products are imperfect so I want a considerable chance to be there that they can and will be fixed. In the case of the Sony PRS - which looked like it had a very high quality control that miserably failed in spots under non-quality related constraints (compromises in project definition) - some people produced modded firmware, and still it remained impossible to modify a /very basic/ usability feature like font size - which could then be changed as a base size but the options remained something like *only* 100% | 150% | 200% | 300% | 400% on that base size. Clever granularity. I repeat: even with hacking it was impossible to fix in that firmware a "mid-sized to way big to huge!?!".

Already knowing that something may (will most probably) need to be fixed, I require the flexibility to be there. The device must potentially do what *I* intend, rigorously.

Since you will meet "half baked software", the chief workaround is to be able to install other software - using consolidated environments, recreating those you are proficient with, testing new ones etc.

"Appliances" (toasters etc.) perform maybe complex processes but with simple and specialized outcomes. Following that, they can be relatively closed.
Multi-purpose devices cannot be appliances. These devices are meant to be multi-purpose devices. Multi-purpose devices in general follow the traditional scheme of having an OS that accepts installing software. Which gives you choice.
I agree, Sony readers are hard to hack, i am lookiing for a device making reading process as easely as possible, so i don't understand why Onyx Boox make their devices "open", driven by Android and have possibility to complete their native not-polished software by third party!, i don't want that, i want a reader to read confortably books in format epub and pdf, not have acces to play store! Tablet do that very well, it's color device, very fast refresh screen, muli-purposes and last not least much cheaper!!

Last edited by lems1995; 07-19-2017 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:17 PM   #43
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i am lookiing for a device making reading process as easely as possible
It is already like that

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so i don't understand why Onyx Boox make their devices "open"
to sell them to the appropriate market

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driven by Android and have possibility to complete their native not-polished software by third party!
you must be joking.

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i don't want that, i want a reader to read confortably
I understood the market is alredy full of them

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Tablet do that very well, it's color device, very fast refresh screen, muli-purposes and last not least much cheaper!!
And very apparently, some of us want us with EPD
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Old 07-21-2017, 07:06 AM   #44
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...the reader can "sleep" between page turns, which the Android device can't do.
You've got to remember that the "Ice Cream Sandwich" (4.0) version of the OS running here is six years old. Android has improved their "sleep" mode considerably since then. That's why folks want to get up to at least KitKat (4.4) if they can.

Plus Android's biggest "weakness" here (battery life/sleep mode) is also its biggest "strength". You can run any number of 3rd party apps. How efficient those apps are though vary a lot from developer to developer. Some also call Bluetooth or WiFi modules constantly for "cloud" features which kill battery quickly. "Airplane Mode" doesn't seem to be implemented on ereaders (at least under ICS).
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Old 07-21-2017, 09:04 AM   #45
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There are generally compromises that result from flexibility, however. For example, eInk devices running Android tend to have a significantly shorter battery life than a dedicated eInk book reader, because the reader can "sleep" between page turns, which the Android device can't do.
They can't. They have to build the next page with the CPU internally.
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