Fun with Amazon: Defective PaperWhite - Page 2

Barbara1955 · 03-07-2018, 10:44 PM

Mine June 2017 .... Still under Warranty

No where in my chat was Repair mentioned. Replace with NEW like the one I have: White with Blue Lights

And today in the chat... the person said NEW several time!
Yet the order says R for Refribished

I save ALL my Chats So when it comes I Will be sending it back!

HarryT · 03-08-2018, 01:31 AM

A warranty replacement will generally be for a refurbished device. This has always been the case unless the device is replaced immediately after purchase.

Barbara1955 · 03-08-2018, 01:43 AM

Harry my 1st Kindle K3 was Broke by my son 6 months after I got it. I told Amazon this they Replaced it with a New K3...

HarryT · 03-08-2018, 01:45 AM

It was very nice of them to do that, but what I said is nonetheless true; Amazon's normal policy is to replace faulty devices with a refurb.

Barbara1955 · 03-08-2018, 01:50 AM

Then they should STOP calling them NEW! Not Once Not Twice but 3 TIMES!

BookCat · 03-08-2018, 05:36 AM

It seems that their use of the word "new" means "new to you" rather than newly manufactured. If it was a paperback, would they replace it with a tatty old used one? It would still be new to you, but not new according to the normal definition.

haertig · 03-08-2018, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BookCat

It seems that their use of the word "new" means "new to you" rather than newly manufactured.

If that's their definition, then there is no such thing as "used", since everything is always "new to YOU". And they would have no need to label their refurbs as "refurbished". They don't even have to send you anything that works, since "new is new to you" no matter what the condition or functionality.

They are not allowed to redefine "black" to "white" because it suits their purposes.

haertig · 03-08-2018, 10:13 AM

It doesn't really matter what their "standard policy" is, if their employee specifically stated to send your old device back to them and they'd send you a new one. If you did what they said, and then they didn't do what they agreed to do afterwards, that's fraud. A very good reason to use chat rather than phone calls, and save those chats.

If Amazon comes back with "That employee didn't have the authority to promise that", then I'd reply with, "Well, it looks like you need to re-train or fire them then. But that's none of my concern. Where's my new PaperWhite?"

"New" is not some vague, blurry impressionist concept. "New" has specific, accepted and legally enforceable meaning.

HarryT · 03-08-2018, 10:19 AM

Amazon clearly state in their warranty conditions that they can (and, posts here suggest, generally do) use refurbished devices for warranty replacement:

Quote:

During this warranty period, if a defect arises in the Device, and you follow the instructions for returning the Device, we will at our option, to the extent permitted by law, either (i) repair the Device using either new or refurbished parts, (ii) replace the Device with a new or refurbished Device that is equivalent to the Device to be replaced, or (iii) refund to you all or part of the purchase price of the Device.

(emphasis mine)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custo...deId=202197860

haertig · 03-08-2018, 10:44 AM

Sure, their warranty statement says they may decide to use new or refurbished "at their option".

However, in the recorded chat, they chose the new option. They stated it right there in the chat. Clear as day. Not once,"You'll get a new device", but twice "if your Kindle is replaced, then you'll get either new one or the newer one than yours".

Yes, it was their choice. The choice they made and committed to was "new".

HarryT · 03-08-2018, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haertig

However, in the recorded chat, they chose the new option. They stated it right there in the chat. Clear as day. Not once,"You'll get a new device", but twice "if your Kindle is replaced, then you'll get either new one or the newer one than yours".

I would interpret the statement "either a new one or a newer one than yours" as meaning either a new device, or a refurbished device that is newer than the device that is being replaced. (Eg if your Kindle is 6 months old, they might replace it with one that is 5 months old.)

haertig · 03-08-2018, 11:14 AM

Quote:

I would interpret the statement "either a new one or a newer one than yours" as meaning...

You would make a great lawyer!

To be quite honest, I would normally prefer a refurb device over a new one. But only if the refurbs go through a similar process to what we used in an electronics manufacturer that I used to work for. New products were tested, but some of those tests were sampling. Other tests were done on every product. In the case of returns, those all went through every test process, no sampling. Before repairing one, the "broken" device as sent in by the customer was first subjected to the full suit of tests. If it passed them all (before we had even started to think about possible repairs), then the device was rejected for sending out to a new customer. We called these "NTF's" for "No Trouble Found". i.e.,the assumption was that there was something wrong with it, but we couldn't identify the problem. In all reality, the issue was probably that the customer lied about it being broken. But we didn't want to take a chance on that with a new customer. We might re-use these NTF's in-house (they were clearly marked), but they'd never go back out to a customer.

However, my specific concern with a Kindle is the battery. That is the heart of keeping the device running, and it is not easily replaceable as far as I know. I do not want a used battery with unknown usage history.

HarryT · 03-08-2018, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haertig

However, my specific concern with a Kindle is the battery. That is the heart of keeping the device running, and it is not easily replaceable as far as I know. I do not want a used battery with unknown usage history.

I understand your concern, but what do you understand "... or a newer one than yours" as meaning except a refurb that is more recent than the device being replaced? I really can't think of any other way to interpret it.

ilovejedd · 03-08-2018, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I understand your concern, but what do you understand "... or a newer one than yours" as meaning except a refurb that is more recent than the device being replaced? I really can't think of any other way to interpret it.

Yup, to me, that "... or a newer one than yours" addendum reads refurb.

haertig · 03-08-2018, 11:59 AM

I interpret "newer than yours" to mean something with newer firmware, or even a PaperWhite 4 if they manage to release something like that in the next few days.

So where does the quote below from the chat fit into your more lax interpretation? Notice how I chose my words in the chat very precisely. I presented an either/or. It's either NEW, or REJECT/REFURBISHED. Either/or. I choose my words carefully in matters like this. On purpose.

Quote:

08:59 PM PST Me: If my Kindle cannot be repaired (probably not cost effective to do so), do you plan on replacing it with a NEW Kindle, or somebody else's reject/refurbished model?

09:00 PM PST Ravi: You'll get a new device

Are we back to "new to YOU"? That definition won't hold water, since EVERYTHING is "new to YOU".

And further down, I had him reconfirm. On purpose.

Quote:

09:03 PM PST Me: It is perfectly fine if you can repair mine successfully. My concern is getting somebody else's return/reject/refurbished Kindle that may itself have a significantly deteriorated battery. Batteries have a fixed lifetime. So I either want MY device back, or a NEW device. That is the only way I'll know the battery history. NEW is fine, or MINE is fine. Somebody else's is NOT fine. I just wanted us to be clear on that.

09:04 PM PST Ravi: Okay

So given the entire context of the chat above, there is zero justification for interpreting "newer than yours" to mean "refurbished".

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03-07-2018, 10:44 PM	#16
Barbara1955 Non-Techy Posts: 4,454 Karma: 15499273 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: WV---USA Device: Samsung Cell Phone & Amazon Fires & Kobo eReaders	Mine June 2017 .... Still under Warranty No where in my chat was Repair mentioned. Replace with NEW like the one I have: White with Blue Lights And today in the chat... the person said NEW several time! Yet the order says R for Refribished I save ALL my Chats So when it comes I Will be sending it back!

03-08-2018, 01:31 AM	#17
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	A warranty replacement will generally be for a refurbished device. This has always been the case unless the device is replaced immediately after purchase.

03-08-2018, 01:43 AM	#18
Barbara1955 Non-Techy Posts: 4,454 Karma: 15499273 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: WV---USA Device: Samsung Cell Phone & Amazon Fires & Kobo eReaders	Harry my 1st Kindle K3 was Broke by my son 6 months after I got it. I told Amazon this they Replaced it with a New K3...

03-08-2018, 01:45 AM	#19
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	It was very nice of them to do that, but what I said is nonetheless true; Amazon's normal policy is to replace faulty devices with a refurb.

03-08-2018, 01:50 AM	#20
Barbara1955 Non-Techy Posts: 4,454 Karma: 15499273 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: WV---USA Device: Samsung Cell Phone & Amazon Fires & Kobo eReaders	Then they should STOP calling them NEW! Not Once Not Twice but 3 TIMES!

03-08-2018, 05:36 AM	#21
BookCat C L J Posts: 2,912 Karma: 21115458 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Birmingham UK Device: Sony e-reader 505, Kindle PW2, Kindle PW3, Kobo Libra2	It seems that their use of the word "new" means "new to you" rather than newly manufactured. If it was a paperback, would they replace it with a tatty old used one? It would still be new to you, but not new according to the normal definition.

03-08-2018, 10:13 AM	#23
haertig Wizard Posts: 1,738 Karma: 25906336 Join Date: Sep 2017 Device: PW3, Fire HD8 Gen7, Moto G7, Sansa Clip v2, Ruizu X26	It doesn't really matter what their "standard policy" is, if their employee specifically stated to send your old device back to them and they'd send you a new one. If you did what they said, and then they didn't do what they agreed to do afterwards, that's fraud. A very good reason to use chat rather than phone calls, and save those chats. If Amazon comes back with "That employee didn't have the authority to promise that", then I'd reply with, "Well, it looks like you need to re-train or fire them then. But that's none of my concern. Where's my new PaperWhite?" "New" is not some vague, blurry impressionist concept. "New" has specific, accepted and legally enforceable meaning.

03-08-2018, 10:44 AM	#25
haertig Wizard Posts: 1,738 Karma: 25906336 Join Date: Sep 2017 Device: PW3, Fire HD8 Gen7, Moto G7, Sansa Clip v2, Ruizu X26	Sure, their warranty statement says they may decide to use new or refurbished "at their option". However, in the recorded chat, they chose the new option. They stated it right there in the chat. Clear as day. Not once,"You'll get a new device", but twice "if your Kindle is replaced, then you'll get either new one or the newer one than yours". Yes, it was their choice. The choice they made and committed to was "new".

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