"American Gods" discussion

[jgaiser]

I'm back....

Finished "Monarch of the Glen" late last night. Another strange and weird story. I'm going to need to read it again.

We have Grendel and his Mum, a Huldra and other strange characters.

But, back to the reason I was reading it.

In a dream sequence near the beginning of the story we have the following exchange:

"Hail!" called the men on the deck. "Hail sun-bringer! Hail Baldur!"

The name on Shadow's birth certificate was Balder Moon, but he shook his head. "I am not him," he to them. "I am not the one you are waiting for."

In another dream sequence he speaks to a one-eyed red-bearded man (Thor?):

"Too much time has passed," said the red-bearded man. By the hammer at his side, Shadow knew him. "Too much blood has been spilled. You are of our blood, Baldur. Set us free."

So, where do I stand. The story seems to strongly imply that Shadow is Baldur, but he continues to deny it. So, I guess I still don't know.

[Ea]

Yes, great story with its own mysteries - thanks for mentioning it I'd completely forgotten about it.

I think Grendel and his mother were simply guest stars - but what guests I loved the fact that Grendel's mother carries a handbag.

I am wondering whether Gaiman haven't chosen to name Shadow as Balder after the fact - as a response to fan speculation about Shadow's identity. I just personally see so little in Shadow's person that points in that direction.

Originally Posted by jgaiser

In another dream sequence he speaks to a one-eyed red-bearded man (Thor?):

I read that as Thor because of the red beard and his hammer - but it's curious that's he's one-eyed.

[recluse]

Perhaps Shadow really is what he appears to be.
A shadow.
A potential.
Chosen by forces outside himself to be the personification of Balder/Thor/whoever.
In his absolute denial, he becomes...Shadow.
A being unto his own right to be who and what he chooses to be.
Incomplete because of his untapped potential, a shadow of the memory of something that is fading away.
He is an enigma for what he is and for what he is not.
Just Shadow.

[Ea]

I like that interpretation.

[Witchbaby]

I don't know if this is related, but in the Thor comic universe Odin only has one eye (at least for a little while, and in the movie).

[Penforhire]

Recluse, I like that. Of course all the gods in that book are mere shadows of their former selves. Hammer? I'll show you a hammer!

[Ea]

I have been digging a little deeper into the Balder myths - thought it might give an idea of why Gaiman should choose to name Shadow "Baldur Moon" - but I can't say it helped much.

There's two schools of interpretation:
1: The story of the death of Balder is a version of the myth of the young, male god who dies and is resurrected (an image of the turning of the seasons). The big problem with this idea is that Balder doesn't return from the dead.
2: The story is an image of warrior initiation rituals. The young warrior is given over to the lord of war, Odin. Through dying, he becomes a member of Odin's warriors. Since Ragnarok is near, having many skilled warriors on hos side is important for Odin.

Perhaps hypothesis no. 2 is a bit closer to the Shadow character, but I am still puzzled as to why Shadow has to die through the exact same process as when Odin sacrificed himself to himself rather than something that alludes to the actual death of Balder. Odd.

Another thought; the final battle that Odin and Loke plans in American Gods, is much like Ragnarok; the final battle of the gods against the forces of chaos (and the loss of the gods' and consequently the end of the world). Balder's death was one of the harbingers of Ragnarok.

Perhaps Odin is more important than we realise. Shadow dies Odin's death, and in "Monarch of the Glen", a probable Thor figure displays an important characteristic of Odin (lack of an eye).

[Ea]

I wondered if anyone here had some other questions about the book rather than Shadow's identity that we could discuss? I feel I high-jacked my own thread a bit, and it would be a shame if we didn't get to talk about other interesting things.

[recluse]

I find it interesting that Gaiman chose the Norse gods. I admit to knowing very few Norwegians, and can't speak for them, but do they still believe?

In other books I've read concerning old god/myth survival, it is usually the Irish/Celtic ("Faerie Tale" by Raymond Feist), the Welsh ("CandleNight" by Phil Rickman) and the Native American beliefs.

Lastly, I recently watched a television program about Thor and Ragnarok which strongly suggested that Ragnarok is not an end times myth, but a creation myth.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by recluse

I find it interesting that Gaiman chose the Norse gods. I admit to knowing very few Norwegians, and can't speak for them, but do they still believe?

Em.... "Norse" would refer to all of Scandinavia - Sweden, Denmark and Norway and parts of Finland - and includes Iceland and the few settlers on Greenland at the time.

The belief in the old gods did not survive the Christianisation around 1000 AD. Today, you may find small neo-pagan groups who believe in the old gods, but basically all the knowledge and stories of the old gods are founded in the works and stories that were collected on Iceland in the late 17th century. N.F.S. Grundtvig (19th century, Denmark) translated the old myths to current Danish and used the stories to support building a national identity, re-inforcing a positive image of the vikings. Some of the bed-time stories I was told was the stories of the old gods - they still live, but it's not an unbroken tradition.

I am personally very fascinated by the old gods and that Gaiman chose them as main characters certainly helped to draw me in as a reader. As this thread must attest, I'm still very fascinated - also in how others see them (others being non-scandinavians not brought up with the stories and knowledge).

In any case, to answer your question, yes, a very few Norwegians and other Scandinavians believe, but it's a modern belief. It is not an ancient tradition that has survived the ages.

Originally Posted by recluse

In other books I've read concerning old god/myth survival, it is usually the Irish/Celtic ("Faerie Tale" by Raymond Feist), the Welsh ("CandleNight" by Phil Rickman) and the Native American beliefs.

I think any survival tends to be found most alive in folklore. I know none of the books you mention, so I can't make any possible comparisons with Scandinavia. With regards religion we are very pragmatic and secular in Scandinavia - even folklore belief seem to have faded away.

Originally Posted by recluse

Lastly, I recently watched a television program about Thor and Ragnarok which strongly suggested that Ragnarok is not an end times myth, but a creation myth.

Edit, added:
That is the first I have heard of that hypothesis. I am VERY curious about what sources they used in the TV program? And how they argued for their conclusion? It seems strange and new to me, and I would really love to learn more about what they said about it. Is the TV program available online?

[recluse]

My apologies.
I meant no disrespect.
Thank you for correcting my error.

As to the program in question, it was shown on The History Channel here in the U.S., which must have a website.
According to their version, after Thor's battle with the Midgard Serpent, in which both are killed, and the cataclysm ends, the sole survivors, a man and a woman, would parent the human race.

[Ea]

Ah, no problem

Thanks for the info on the TV programme. I'll look it up. Those humans must have been Ask and Embla. I have heard, and read, that story, too. There are several original versions of Ragnarok and many interpretations. Unfortunately we have hardly any original sources, all that is written down was done so by Christian monks.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by Ea

I wondered if anyone here had some other questions about the book rather than Shadow's identity that we could discuss? I feel I high-jacked my own thread a bit, and it would be a shame if we didn't get to talk about other interesting things.

Ok, I've read that characters from "Sandman" were in "American Gods"

I'm clueless about the "Sandman" series. ???

[Ea]

I'm afraid I haven't read Sandman either.

[Latinandgreek]

Sandman is a great series, I highly recommend it. I believe that it features Bast, (the cat goddess that seduces Shadow), Odin, Loki (the "original" versions), and I think that there are cameos in American Gods by Destruction's talking dog and Despair.