Would you buy the print or the ebook for the same price?

[ApK]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

No, I don't.
A vendor might choose to offer those facilities.
They might also choose not to offer them, or to withdraw them at any time.
Anyone want to try getting an instant replacement of a book they bought from one of the many eBook stores that have since closed down?
What legally-enforceable rights do I have with an eBook? (Or, to put it another way, what things can I not legally be prevented from doing. That set is smaller than with pBooks.)

A copyright holder might change his terms too. Or he might decide not to publish at all. So what?

My rights aren't identical, that is what the discussion is about?

It's what people worked up about the buy/license thing seem to think that discussion is about. This discussion is a tangent of a discussion about prices, as far as I can keep track anyway.

I'm not really sure I understand why you are so worked up about this.

I'm annoyed by constant restatement of incorrect information, especially when it interferes with me getting reforms I think are important.
I'm not sure why anyone framing IP rights argument as a "buy/license" argument is so worked up about it, their understanding of the source of their IP rights seems to be so faulty.

Digital items, whether books, music or programs, are ultimately licensed rather than purchased. That isn't to damn them as second-class citizens, it is just what the words mean.

All IP is licensed, whether digital or analog, whether persisted as electromagnetic impulses or as marks on paper, whether the terms are expressed in a license agreement or implied by law.
That's exactly my point. It's the terms of the license that matter, not the word used to refer to it.

In this context anyway. If you actually buy the IP, as in the copyright to the content, that is a very different thing, of course.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Fluribus

And sometimes they skip the speel chicking

and dont wurry about the flooooor

mat
tin
g.

And sometimes the publishers of the pbook copies make a hash of things when printing the book as well. A good example of that that I'm aware of is "The Lord of The Rings." We're still reaping the harvest of that blundering today in the ebook copies.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by crich70

And sometimes the publishers of the pbook copies make a hash of things when printing the book as well. A good example of that that I'm aware of is "The Lord of The Rings." We're still reaping the harvest of that blundering today in the ebook copies.

I think I still have my paperback Random-House dictionary which had the second half of one letter's pages missing, and in it's place had a repeat of the first half. It amuses me.

[shanghaichica]

Uggh. I haven't read a paper book in over 3 years and I've just had to buy one! I've been waiting to read this book for a few years but it's not available in ebook format in my country. It's available in the US so was hoping it would come out over here. Decided I can't wait any longer as I need closure as it's a sequel to a book I read some years ago.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by ApK

I'm annoyed by constant restatement of incorrect information, especially when it interferes with me getting reforms I think are important.
I'm not sure why anyone framing IP rights argument as a "buy/license" argument is so worked up about it, their understanding of the source of their IP rights seems to be so faulty.

It's not difficult to understand what murraypaul means.

Of course, all content is licensed, as in the fact that you may not copy or reproduce it. However, murraypaul is right with regard to the fact that he owns a book, but doesn't own an ebook.

You can do with a paper book whatever you want. You can shelve it, give it away, burn it, sell it. It will be readable in 1 year, 2 years, or 50 years, if you treat it well.

You can't do all that with ebooks, as long as there is DRM on it. Reselling, lending and giving away becomes impossible (in most cases), but I understand that without DRM, you could just copy the file and "give it away" without losing your own copy.

What is worse, is that readability of the ebook can not be guaranteed as long as there's DRM on it, as you can't convert the file to different formats. It limits your choice in readers and reader programs.

I think that this is the main reason that many people (especially the non-tech ones) don't want to pay the same for an ebook as they'd pay for a paperback. They know that they are loosing control over the future readability of the story that they are buying, so they will want to pay less.

I, myself, don't really care about the price of an ebook vs. paperback or hardback. For my part, they can cost the same. I'd actually pay a bit more for an ebook, because it saves me storage, allows the use of my own fonts and font sizes, allows using a lighted reader, and is easier to carry and to hold. It'll never fall apart. It'll never snap shut when I put it down. If worst comes to worst, I can actually change the layout, spacing, and indentation if the ones used don't suit me. Try that with a paper book.

All that convenience is worth something to me... as long as there is no DRM on the book.

If I cannot strip DRM from the content I buy, then I won't buy it, be it music, movies, games, or books, then I don't want it. I won't buy it.

Normally, I would even include activation of software in this category. However, I accept it for Windows, because I need that OS to run the software I want to run. There is no alternative for some programs I need or want to use. I also accepted it for Scrivener, because at around €30, it is cheap enough to lose and easy to replace with something else, should that ever happen.

What I will never accept is a subscription service DRM that Adobe is now transferring to, so you'll have to keep paying constantly to use the software, instead of saving up once, buy the program you want, and then use it for 5+ years.

That company has angered me so much lately, with many changes in their policies and support, that I have decided to remove all Adobe software from my computer and transition to RAWTherapee and GIMP for my advanced amateur photography needs. I'll make do. The only thing I loath is that I can't remove Digital Editions, because almost every store depends on it, at least for the books that I want to read. It's also impossible to remove Flash, because half the internet will stop working.

I can understand that a program made for Windows XP in 2005 may not run on Windows 12 in 2025, but that's not the maker's fault. In that case, you'd just have to use a virtual machine running Windows XP and run the software from there. However, if the software requires an authentication server, and the server is gone for whatever reason (ask people that play EA games...), then you can virtualize whatever you want. You won't ever be able to run the legal software. You *will* be able to run the pirated version however.

In short: If there is unremovable DRM on any piece of software, game, book, music, movie, or whatever means that makes the manufacturer control the usability of it, then the value to me is instantly reduced to 0 and my desire to pay money for it drops to below the freezing point.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I think that this is the main reason that many people (especially the non-tech ones) don't want to pay the same for an ebook as they'd pay for a paperback. They know that they are loosing control over the future readability of the story that they are buying, so they will want to pay less.

I think that, too, is 180 degrees wrong. The typical non-techie ebook consumer neither knows nor cares about DRM or about the potential impact it may have on their control in the future.
It's a non-issue for most.
They click Buy on their Nook or Kindle and books appear.
That's why the ebook market is growing so much.

[Katsunami]

I hope you are incorrect, because if you are correct, then millions of people are going to have some very nasty surprises somewhere down the line.

Maybe you're right. Thinking about it, I shouldn't be too surprised; many people nowadays are too uncaring (or stupid) to actually research what they are getting into when they start doing something.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

In short: If there is unremovable DRM on any piece of software, game, book, music, movie, or whatever means that makes the manufacturer control the usability of it, then the value to me is instantly reduced to 0 and my desire to pay money for it drops to below the freezing point.

To me there is unremovable DRM in any movie as seen in theatres or TV. Sure you can record it, or videotape it but you cannot legally resell it although you have paid either by ticket or subscription to watch it. And sure we can all watch our VHS movies but eventually they will wear out as will the players we watch them on.

I actually think in general that ebooks are are likely to remain readable for the most part, with a longevity greater than paper books. They aren't, for example, susceptable to mold, fire or ketchup on the pages.

I have owned a lot of paper books that I can't read now, because I ran out of space to keep them, or they just were lost, destroyed or borrowed and not returned. Movies on VHS that just didn't look that good after new formats wer introduced or were again just lost, borrowed or deteriated.

Ebooks can be lost if your house blows up, or the internet dies etc. But they don't mold and they laugh at the ketchup stains.

Worrying obsessively about whether your ebook will be readable in 20 years time seems, shall we say obsessive. Worst case you can buy another copy, which I have done for many paper books that went missing or got destroyed.

Helen

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I hope you are incorrect, because if you are correct, then millions of people are going to have some very nasty surprises somewhere down the line.

Possibly. By no means certainly, even if nothing changes. But we also have techie activists working to change things for the better, so even if the potential risk would prove to eventually be a real problem, like with the Y2K bug, the masses may have the problem averted through the efforts of others and never know what might have happened.

Maybe you're right. Thinking about it, I shouldn't be too surprised; many people nowadays are too uncaring (or stupid) to actually research what they are getting into when they start doing something.

I thinks it's more benign than that in this case. At the moment, the DRM walled gardens simply work as advertised, giving the value and features most people want. There is simply no need to look deeper, any more than there is a need for every driver to be an automotive engineer.

ApK

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I hope you are incorrect, because if you are correct, then millions of people are going to have some very nasty surprises somewhere down the line.

Maybe you're right. Thinking about it, I shouldn't be too surprised; many people nowadays are too uncaring (or stupid) to actually research what they are getting into when they start doing something.

I don't think uncaring or stupid are the right terms. Most people who actually want to read a book, just want to read the book. Passing it on or getting back some of the cost isn't an issue. Even buying a cheaper copy isn't an issue. Many avid readers take a week or a month to read a book. At the end of this time they just want to read another book. They don't want to even deal with selling, loaning, trading the last book, paper or otherwise. There are many older adults who are delighted that they can delete their ebook and it is gone. The younger readers who have never had paper books pile up in the basment may never truly appreciate this thrill.

Even if the price of an ebook is as high or higher than a paper book, I am impacted far more if my dishwasher breaks down or my car breaks down or my roof collapses.

I am afraid if you explained the evils of DRM to most people, and they actually understood it, they wouldn't be overly concerned. They would just say couldn't I buy another book for my new reader while looking for the nearest exit.

Helen

[4691mls]

I read mostly library books, but when I do buy a book, I don't compare prices between paper and ebooks.

I am more likely to buy a novel on ebook. How much I am willing to pay would vary depending on how much I want to read the book, but I would not compare the ebook price to pbook prices.

If I want a cookbook, or some kind of book with lots of color photos, I would buy a paper book. I would not look at ebook prices.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I am afraid if you explained the evils of DRM to most people, and they actually understood it, they wouldn't be overly concerned. They would just say couldn't I buy another book for my new reader while looking for the nearest exit.

This is exactly what I meant by "uncaring".

I know someone (a somewhat older person who doesn't use computers) who bought an iPhone because he heard everywhere that it was the best thing since sliced bread. Later on, Android phones got a bigger and bigger screen and he wanted that, so he bought a Galaxy S3.

It was a hell to explain why he couldn't just download his App Store apps again, why some apps where not available, or why he had to pay again if they were.

It wouldn't sink in that iOS and Android are two completely different systems. "But they are both smartphones! But...."

I see this happening to people who switch from Kindle to an Epub reader, or the other way around, and they might even pay again for a book they already own. This would not have been necessary, had they cared to do some research.

[BadBilly]

I really don't get the "the e-book should be really cheap because there's no paper" argument. The cost to print a book in quantity is small. Maybe a couple of buck each, if that, in the volumes that a major publisher will print for a best-seller. If a paper book sells for $14, those who say an e-book should cost half the price of a p-book are saying they'd pay $7 for 300 pages of poorly bound low-quality paper.

The real cost in producing the book is in the overhead. Offices, phone bills, editors, design staff, secretaries, etc, that go into getting the book from the slush pile to market. Even distribution isn't that big a cost for paper books. And, despite what some seem to think, distributing e-books isn't free. Running the online stores cost money. Everything from IT support to bandwidth and all the staff involved. TANSTAAFL.

The e-book is worth exactly as much as I want to pay for it. If it is priced at that price or lower, I'd buy it. That's how I decide how much to pay for a p-book too.

[latepaul]

The problem with a lot of the discussions around buy/license and ebook/paper book comparisons comes down to a faulty comparison.

With a paper book there are two things which can be owned - the physical object and the IP rights to the information it contains. When we say we buy a book we almost never mean buying the later (unless you're a publisher). So we buy a physical object which contains some IP to which we have a license which gives us limited rights (can't make copies etc.)

The thing about an ebook is that these two things still exist but now they are purchased separately. There is a physical object - the reader device, and the IP - the "ebook". Actually in technical terms you usually have more rights to the IP of an ebook because most vendors allow you to make multiple copies, use it it different devices simultaneously.

But the perceived rights are different. The perception is that if I buy a paper book I can sell it, lend it etc. And I can but I'm selling the physical object. But if I then go on to say I can't do that with an ebook, well again I'm right but I'm not comparing the same things. The physical object in the ereading world is the device - which guess what? I can sell, lend and so on.

So actually the supposed greater rights of the paper book aren't really rights they're properties of it being a fixed physical object.

Now you may say that this doesn't matter because the end result is the same. If I want a copy of the novel "The Shining" and I buy it in ebook form versus paper then what I can legally do with that is then different. Whether it's to do with rights strictly speaking or not is beside the point. Again true but I do think being clear about these differences helps. It helps because it stops us automatically assume that certain things should be true ("I should be able to lend my ebooks because I can with my paper books").

[jersysman]

Time to unsubscribe from this thread. We've been over the same discussions ad nauseum and it starts to grate on my old eyes.