discuss: most ebooks are inferior to their paper versions

[madwab]

Hi, folks, I'm new to ebooks and to the forum, but I've had a hunt around the net and around this forum, and I'm hugely disappointed in two things: (a) most of the books I've checked have lost the formatting of the original, in particular the author's italics, and (b) there doesn't seem to be much interest in the community about this issue.

Given that italics can change the tone of a sentence quite drastically, surely it's important that they're retained? I understand that a lot of books have been saved as .txt files at some point in their lives, but I'm sure that's not the only explanation: I have the impression that most people don't care.

Have a look for Les Miserables on amazon's Kindle store - there are 67 matches, most of which are the Isabel F Hapgood translation, which uses italics. None of them are free. I've downloaded the sample for most of them, and I haven't found one that has retained the italics.

A few days ago I updated my Dickens novels collection from mobileread.com, and was very pleased to find that all of them were formatted correctly; but the Les Miserables file is just another modified .txt version.

Is it just me, or are others frustrated by this? (And can anyone point me at a formatted version of Les Mis?)

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by madwab

Is it just me, or are others frustrated by this? (And can anyone point me at a formatted version of Les Mis?)

Some of us care deeply about eBook formatting, hence my pet project to produce fully proofed versions of the complete works of Dickens here at MR. If you do care, and you want to make a practical contribution to the eBook community, the best thing you can do is to fully proof and correct a book that you care about. Why not tackle "Les Miserables" yourself? Plenty of Google page scans around for you to proof against!

[GlenBarrington]

Originally Posted by madwab

Hi, folks, I'm new to ebooks and to the forum, but I've had a hunt around the net and around this forum, and I'm hugely disappointed in two things: (a) most of the books I've checked have lost the formatting of the original, in particular the author's italics, and (b) there doesn't seem to be much interest in the community about this issue.

Given that italics can change the tone of a sentence quite drastically, surely it's important that they're retained? I understand that a lot of books have been saved as .txt files at some point in their lives, but I'm sure that's not the only explanation: I have the impression that most people don't care.

Have a look for Les Miserables on amazon's Kindle store - there are 67 matches, most of which are the Isabel F Hapgood translation, which uses italics. None of them are free. I've downloaded the sample for most of them, and I haven't found one that has retained the italics.

A few days ago I updated my Dickens novels collection from mobileread.com, and was very pleased to find that all of them were formatted correctly; but the Les Miserables file is just another modified .txt version.

Is it just me, or are others frustrated by this? (And can anyone point me at a formatted version of Les Mis?)

I think I can understand why someone really into Dickens would want to replicate the formatting of a paperbook as much as possible.

We are in the very early stages of ebook publishing, not all the software tools we need are in place, and not all the tools we have are particlarly mature. As a result, it takes quite a bit of effort to get an eBook 'just right' because there are multiple screen sizes, and what looks good on screen size 'A' isn't all that great on Screen size 'B'. And then, because of the multiple file formats by multiple manufacturers, if you want to publish to a second or third file format or manufacturer, you have to do all that work over again.

I think you aren't looking for the right versions for you. They're out there, but you do have to search for them. And they usually produced by people like you who love the look and feel of a paperbook. (And usually, these people tend to specialize in public domain books for whatever format they use/prefer!). For them it is a work of love, not profit.

At this point, I'd look at the community of users of your particular machine. When you find a volume you really like, find out who produced it, and ask them if they've done any others. You might even offer to help.

Yeah it's some work, but try to remember you are laying the groundwork for an industry in transition. What you do, WILL affect the future.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by GlenBarrington

I think I can understand why someone really into Dickens would want to replicate the formatting of a paperbook as much as possible.

No, it's not about replicating the formatting of a paper book, just correcting errors, adding back all the missing formatting - italics, accented letters, proper formatting of letters, songs and poetry - that kind of thing.

Most of the free versions of the classics are based on PG originals, and unfortunately it's often the very greatest classics that are in the worst shape, because they were typed in by hand, with all the resulting errors that produced. Eg, when I was proofing my version of "The Old Curiosity Shop" I found two cases where the PG edition was missing what was obviously a complete double page of the original book - the person who typed it in had obviously turned over two pages by mistake, and hadn't noticed. In addition to that there were several missing paragraphs, and a large number of missing sentences. Those are the kind of errors that you can only find by proofing against a printed (or scanned) original.

That's in addition to the more mundane task of restoring italics, accented letters, and so on.

[BexBits]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Some of us care deeply about eBook formatting, hence my pet project to produce fully proofed versions of the complete works of Dickens here at MR. If you do care, and you want to make a practical contribution to the eBook community, the best thing you can do is to fully proof and correct a book that you care about. Why not tackle "Les Miserables" yourself? Plenty of Google page scans around for you to proof against!

I'm interested in tackling at least one book myself but am a bit bewildered about how to start. Is there any sort of "Basics of ebook Editing" you can point me to?

[madwab]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why not tackle "Les Miserables" yourself?

I'm in the middle of moving from London to western Canada, so it'll be quite some time, but if non-one has done it then I'm game.

I've already been through the process - I recently created fully formatted versions of the James Blish After Such Knowledge collection - Dr Mirabilis, Black Easter, The Day After Judgement and A Case of Conscience; but they're still in copyright so I can't share them. (Tho' I may contact the publisher - anyone got any experience of acquiring the rights to sell a copyrighed abook and the obligations to go with them?)

[HarryT]

There's no particular secret to it.

What I do myself is to find a page-scanned PDF of the book I want to proof, the older the better. "archive.org" is the best site I know of for getting these. Then, on my computer monitor I have the eBook and the PDF open side-by-side (you need a large wide-screen monitor to do this well) and I just read the two in parallel (this takes a bit of practice!). Whenever I find a mistake in the eBook I correct it there and then, and carry on. The end result is a hopefully well-formatted and error-free eBook.

This takes enormous concentration, and I try to spend about 2 or 3 ten minute sessions a day on it. I set myself a target of getting through perhaps 20 pages each day. That way, even the longest book I can get through in a few weeks.

It's very hard work, but I find it to be extremely satisfying, too.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by madwab

...

Is it just me, or are others frustrated by this? (And can anyone point me at a formatted version of Les Mis?)

No, it annoys me a good deal, too. But as been pointed out, many of the PD Gutenberg texts aren't all in that good shape, and it's limited what you can expect. I've been cleaning up a few E. M. Forster novels myself, because it was just so annoying. Perhaps I should make a project out of it, like Harry with Dickens.

As for newly published books, the quality varies a lot, and could be better IMHO. But it's not only formatting, but also bad proofreading that's the problem. The publishers apparently spend less time (and money) on this nowadays.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Most of the free versions of the classics are based on PG originals, and unfortunately it's often the very greatest classics that are in the worst shape, because they were typed in by hand, with all the resulting errors that produced.

That's true indeed.

I'd like to point out that today most books (but not all) in PG are produced by Distributed Proofreaders. This is a site where volunteers can join efforts to have scans converted into text files and thoroughly proofread. The work there is split in stages, and the text is first proofed, then formatted (both page by page), and finally assembled in an ebook. Those who enjoy creating ebooks or proofreading, or those who simply want to help the community or read the most wild assortment of text fragments... please consider joining DP

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Jellby

That's true indeed.

I'd like to point out that today most books (but not all) in PG are produced by Distributed Proofreaders. This is a site where volunteers can join efforts to have scans converted into text files and thoroughly proofread. The work there is split in stages, and the text is first proofed, then formatted (both page by page), and finally assembled in an ebook. Those who enjoy creating ebooks or proofreading, or those who simply want to help the community or read the most wild assortment of text fragments... please consider joining DP

Totally agree, Jellby. Yes, the quality of the books produced by Distributed Proofreaders is very high indeed. Unfortunately, however, they tend to concentrate on doing new books, rather than producing new editions of old ones, and very many of the greatest classics on PG are typed text files, full of errors, which long pre-date the days of scanners and the DP volunteers.

[GlenBarrington]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, it's not about replicating the formatting of a paper book, just correcting errors, adding back all the missing formatting - italics, accented letters, proper formatting of letters, songs and poetry - that kind of thing.

Most of the free versions of the classics are based on PG originals, and unfortunately it's often the very greatest classics that are in the worst shape, because they were typed in by hand, with all the resulting errors that produced. Eg, when I was proofing my version of "The Old Curiosity Shop" I found two cases where the PG edition was missing what was obviously a complete double page of the original book - the person who typed it in had obviously turned over two pages by mistake, and hadn't noticed. In addition to that there were several missing paragraphs, and a large number of missing sentences. Those are the kind of errors that you can only find by proofing against a printed (or scanned) original.

That's in addition to the more mundane task of restoring italics, accented letters, and so on.

I believe the OP was at least obliquely referring to replicating the paper experience. At least that was how I interpreted it. Perhaps the OP can resolve this.

[madwab]

The only way I've found of telling whether a title is formatted correctly is to download it and look for formatting. Some authors use italics sparingly, so it can be a bit laborious. Could the forum add a sticky to say that anyone posting a formatted title should add something, eg '(formatted)', to the title?

[ardeegee]

I think it is an issue of "beggars can't be choosers." I'd rather have proper formatting, but given a choice of paying 5 bucks (or more) for a print copy of a public domain classic and getting a digital version for free-- but losing italics and running into the occasional typo-- I'm going to take the freebie. If the formatting was utterly mangled, I might spring for buying the print version. But I'd rather keep the 5 bucks if it is just living without italics. (That attitude, I'm sure, also comes from years of reading plain-text ebooks on 160x160 pixel PDA screen-- I couldn't have had italics anyway.)

[JeremyZ]

It is a small price to pay for the convenience. Especially when you consider that the worst-formatted books are free, because they're out of copyright and have been scanned haphazardly.

If it bugs you that much, take care of it, as someone mentioned. Personally, I think it is kind of obsessive-compulsive.

The bottom line is that not enough people care to make it worth tackling, from a business perspective. If it was not a free book, write a review on it. If it is on Amazon especially, a badly formatted eBook will lose them business and they'll probably fix it.

[Toxaris]

I think that accents, italics and alike are very important in a book. I think it is on the same level as the actual wording and sentences.
It is also my main gripe with Gutenberg and others. I rather not read a book than a badly formated one. The main issue is however, that it takes a lot of work to do it right. True, for 'free' versions you cannot expect much. But as soon as someone asks money for it, it should be right.
I have deep respect for Harry T and alike that put in many hours to create a very good e-book. They are on a higher level than many of the classics at Amazon and alike.