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Old 08-12-2020, 09:48 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
So your posts in a thread about the 2020 Hugo Award Winners weren't actually referring to the 2020 Hugo Award Winners?
My participation in any thread has various "what about this thread spurred me to comment".

Without having to take a position on "did or did not" the Hugos...I took a position on "adding any <insert list of extra criteria here>" rather than "best book".

"But - that means you don't support diversity". On the contrary....it just means that I don't <insert extra criteria here> should be part of the "best book selection process".

I'd be all for such things as:
  • Hugo for Lesbian Theme
  • Hugo by Native American, Transgender, Bycyclist

Or any other such "Hugo for" to bring extra attention and support to <insert list of criteria here>.
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Old 08-12-2020, 10:05 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by leebase View Post
Without having to take a position on "did or did not" the Hugos...I took a position on "adding any <insert list of extra criteria here>" rather than "best book".
Since such a position is obviously true from basic logic, it seems a rather odd thing to post about.
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Old 08-12-2020, 10:06 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by leebase View Post
"But - that means you don't support diversity". On the contrary....it just means that I don't <insert extra criteria here> should be part of the "best book selection process".
Do you think that any such criteria was inserted into the Hugo selection process?

Do you think that anyone posting here is advocating that such a criteria should be part of the Hugo selection process?

If not, why are you posting about it in this thread?
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Old 08-12-2020, 10:47 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by leebase View Post
...you and the horse you rode in on. I'll write what I write within the bounds of the rules of this forum.
And you believe this to be within the bounds of the rules of this forum? I assure you that it is not. Just because you didn't use the words does not mean it's not abundantly clear to anyone with a brain what you just said to another member/admin of this forum.

Moderator Notice
And that IS a violation. One that would in your best interests to never repeat, should you wish to continue participating in these threads.
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Old 08-12-2020, 11:12 AM   #65
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And you believe this to be within the bounds of the rules of this forum? I assure you that it is not. Just because you didn't use the words does not mean it's not abundantly clear to anyone with a brain what you just said to another member/admin of this forum.


And that IS a violation. One that would in your best interests to never repeat, should you wish to continue participating in these threads.
My sincerest apologies...I thought I was clever enough to communicate the appropriate response to someone declaring my pov was embarrassing...without using forbidden words.

Won't repeat that mistake.
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Old 08-12-2020, 11:13 AM   #66
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Since such a position is obviously true from basic logic, it seems a rather odd thing to post about.
One would THINK it's obviously true...but then...look around.
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Old 08-12-2020, 11:20 AM   #67
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Do you think that any such criteria was inserted into the Hugo selection process?

Do you think that anyone posting here is advocating that such a criteria should be part of the Hugo selection process?

If not, why are you posting about it in this thread?
Are you the "thread thought police"?

I have no idea what actually happened at the Hugos. I am aware that FOR SOME TIME, there has been a controversy (deserved or not), that the selection criteria was no longer "the best piece of science fiction".

The second post in the thread "Maybe it's all of that political BS that happened a while back. I don't care about stuff like that. I just want to read a good book, you know?" put my mind on the track.

Then there was this "Read the amazon reviews of the first three. Sound dreadful. Politically correct and dull. One described as lesbians in space. All by women, one called Tamsyn. There I said it. *prepares to be flamed*. Sci-fi has lost its way."

Followed by this: “All by women.” How would you have reacted if the first three were by men?

And yes...this thread was about whether the Hugos were infected by PC concerns was in flight before I threw my own two cents in.
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Old 08-12-2020, 11:21 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by leebase View Post
One would THINK it's obviously true...but then...look around.
I haven't seen anyone arguing that the best of a subset is better than the best of the whole set.
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Old 08-12-2020, 11:25 AM   #69
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And yes...this thread was about whether the Hugos were infected by PC concerns was in flight before I threw my own two cents in.
I was trying to understand your post.

Some people raised concerns. I have seen no evidence AT ALL that those concerns are justified. You seemed to be saying that the concerns were justified. I wanted to know if that was what you were saying, and if so, what evidence you had for it. It appears I was wrong about your intention, and you just wanted to state a tautology.

Whew! That's a lot of posts to say that the best of a subset might not be as good as the best of the whole set (and can't be better).
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Old 08-12-2020, 11:33 AM   #70
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I was trying to understand your post.

Some people raised concerns. I have seen no evidence AT ALL that those concerns are justified. You seemed to be saying that the concerns were justified.
I didn't take a position on whether the concerns were justified. If I had to guess...I'd say they probably were as PC culture is spreading all throughout society.

One can be in favor of diversity, as I am, and not be in favor of every effort who's well-meaning purpose is to increase diversity.

As for understanding...just read what I write. No hidden agendas. I'm fairly effective in meaning what I say most of the time.

If you think "well, there was no reason to state the obvious" - well, the I must of had reasons to think "everyone doesn't see, believe or accept the obvious".
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Old 08-12-2020, 11:48 AM   #71
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I didn't take a position on whether the concerns were justified. If I had to guess...I'd say they probably were as PC culture is spreading all throughout society...

...I must of had reasons to think "everyone doesn't see, believe or accept the obvious".
Looking at, let's say the list of best novels all being by women. What is the obvious inference there?

Would the same inference be made if that list was made up of all men?

Do you have anything you can point to to show that the books on that list were chosen because the authors were women, rather than because they were thought to be the best books published in the time frame?

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Old 08-12-2020, 11:58 AM   #72
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Looking at, let's say the list of best novels all being by women. What is the obvious inference there?

Would the same inference be made if that list was made up of all men?

Do you have anything you can point to to show that the books on that list were chosen because the authors were women, rather than because they were thought to be the best books published in the time frame?
Nope, I've not made a single comment about what actually happened. But...as the TOPIC was raise BY OTHERS...I participated.

The only assertions I have made is that "best book" should be the criteria for Hugo. That diversity can be promoted by having diversity labeled categories.

That's it. That's the whole summation of what I've written in this thread.

If the best book is about lesbians in space. Hooray. If all the winners have written "the best book" fantastic....no matter if they all share any common demographic.

But really...some of you are "protesting too much" as if in this world of "Oscars so white" - there could not be anything of merit to a discussion of how the Hugos are faring in this culture war.
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Old 08-12-2020, 12:25 PM   #73
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Alright, since folks have asked my opinion of the 2020 Hugos.

I still have no clue if any PC effort was in effect. That a group call Sad Puppies exists...certainly makes the topic worthy of discussion. They may be right or wrong....I don't have an opinion on the merits of their position.

However, I looked at the winner's Amazon page. Yes. I would buy this book based on it's description and the fact it won the award. I like space opera, I like books with political intrigue. I have never read this author, but this book amassed a good number of other awards or nominations.

I agree that forever, the Hugos have meant something to me - although I never had any clue about how Hugos were given. Never even thought about it.

But, now that I know that less than 3,000 votes goes into it....yeah, Tor and companies like that market to win...and probably tip the scales. Just like studios do for Oscars.

So what? I'd still consider the Hugo as an indication I might like reading a book. One of many indicators. Then again, Connie Francis won a couple with books that I think are terrible. Sci fi on time travel that win a Hugo....must be a great book. No. Not in my opinion. Dreadfully long reads...ugh, after 3 of her books I gave up.

Why did I read three? Because she's SUPPOSED to be great (wins awards) and she writes in one of my beloved genre's....time travel.

But that's my opinion of one. The Hugo's have been given to books I love "Ender's Game" and books I didn't like at all (anything by Connie Francis).

I seriously doubt that the Hugos are any more insulated from pc culture than any other aspect of our culture. But, I can't say for sure, I can only say "Hugos should be given to the best book"....without any "society would be improved if more....won" conditions on it.

Last edited by leebase; 08-12-2020 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 08-12-2020, 12:35 PM   #74
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My sincerest apologies...
To whom, exactly?

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I thought I was clever enough to communicate the appropriate response to someone declaring my pov was embarrassing...without using forbidden words.
That you would think saying "F you and the horse you rode in on" was the "appropriate response" to someone who was challenging your stances/statements in a manner allowed by the forum guidelines IS the issue in its entirety.

If that's still unclear, let me simplify it. That particular response (direct or implied) would NEVER be the appropriate response to any other member's post on this forum. Ever. You don't get to apologize for not being clever enough to pull it off.

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Old 08-12-2020, 01:29 PM   #75
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That you would think saying "F you and the horse you rode in on" was the "appropriate response" to someone who was challenging your stances/statements in a manner allowed by the forum guidelines IS the issue in its entirety.
I understand. I have a 10 year track record on this forum - that I stay within the guidelines.

That I didn't this time, was a genuine mistake. I will not make it again.


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