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Old 02-14-2020, 09:36 AM   #1
increase
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underline links removed i sigil but showing in kindle previewer

Tried all ways to remove hyperlink underlines, I am using
a:link {color:#D2691E; text-decoration:none;}\na:visited {text-decoration:none;}\na:hover {text-decoration:none;}

Looks fine in sigil but reverts to underline links in kindle previewer
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Old 02-14-2020, 11:39 AM   #2
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See this thread: hyperlink CSS for KF8
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Old 02-14-2020, 12:14 PM   #3
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See this thread: hyperlink CSS for KF8
could not get this to work it gives an error
<p id="v1114"><a style="text-decoration: none !important;" href="../Text/Section0015_0011.xhtml#ve1114"><mbp:nu>it doesn’t matter leaving gregory peck</mbp:nu></a></p>

Sigil doesn't seem to like <mbp:nu>
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Old 02-14-2020, 12:36 PM   #4
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Sigil doesn't seem to like <mbp:nu>
Not surprising. It is non-standard Amazon proprietary markup for Kindles.
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Old 02-16-2020, 12:34 AM   #5
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could not get this to work it gives an error
<p id="v1114"><a style="text-decoration: none !important;" href="../Text/Section0015_0011.xhtml#ve1114"><mbp:nu>it doesn’t matter leaving gregory peck</mbp:nu></a></p>

Sigil doesn't seem to like <mbp:nu>
@increase:

With all due respect, and I mean that, you know, you might find all of this much, MUCH easier if you would take a week or two, learn about eReaders, eReading formats, eBooks, and the code that works/doesn't work in eBooks, first. You're spending a lot of time flailing around, around things like footnotes, which are actually bog-standard and easy to code, because you've jumped in, head-first, without learning the basics first.

I mean, you're sitting here trying 10-year-old "mobipocket" code and wondering why it doesn't work. A little background, history and gounding in the code would save you time.

Here's a question--WHY are you trying to remove underlines? How do you expect your reader to know that it's a link, if you remove the underline? Does that mean you don't want them to click it? If you don't, then, why is it a link?

If you don't want people clicking it, then remove the link. If you do want people clicking it, then what's your reason for hiding the link from the reader? On eInks, how can they see it to know that it's clickable?

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Old 02-17-2020, 11:51 AM   #6
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@increase:

With all due respect, and I mean that, you know, you might find all of this much, MUCH easier if you would take a week or two, learn about eReaders, eReading formats, eBooks, and the code that works/doesn't work in eBooks, first. You're spending a lot of time flailing around, around things like footnotes, which are actually bog-standard and easy to code, because you've jumped in, head-first, without learning the basics first.

I mean, you're sitting here trying 10-year-old "mobipocket" code and wondering why it doesn't work. A little background, history and gounding in the code would save you time.

Here's a question--WHY are you trying to remove underlines? How do you expect your reader to know that it's a link, if you remove the underline? Does that mean you don't want them to click it? If you don't, then, why is it a link?

If you don't want people clicking it, then remove the link. If you do want people clicking it, then what's your reason for hiding the link from the reader? On eInks, how can they see it to know that it's clickable?

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Very well said!
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Old 02-17-2020, 12:19 PM   #7
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Listen to Hitch.
Spend some time in the MR Wiki reading about your Target format ( PDF is a terrible base format. EPUB2 can probably be converted to anything else. If you use WORD, learn to use it properly for creating e-books)
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Old 02-17-2020, 04:07 PM   #8
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f you use WORD, learn to use it properly for creating e-books)
Open/Apache/Libre Writer, InDesign and much else.

Things to avoid in flowable text (i.e. not fixed layout, poetry etc): Empty paragraphs to get vertical space. Spaces and tabs to get horizontal space. Inline formatting rather than styles.

BR
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:56 AM   #9
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In LibraOffice Writer:
Select regular expressions in Search & replace
\t finds tabs. Replace with a space
Unselect regular expressions
Find all two spaces and replace all with one space till none are found.
Select regular expressions and replace all with nothing for each of these "Finds":
^[ ] Remove leading spaces.
[ ]$ Remove trailing spaces.
^$ Remove Blank paragraphs.
(don't type in the Remove comments).
You can fix a lot of stuff you'd miss proofing, spell or grammar checking with a regex

The only inline formatting I use is Italics. Because there is some sort of slight bug with "character styles" when exporting (Save As) a Doc or Docx version.
Paragraph styles are fine, though again for conversions I have parent as "none". All text / paragraph styles that isn't entries in the TOC / NCX etc should have Outline Level "Text Body"
Chapter headings will normally be Level 1, or Level 2 if there are Sections/Parts at Level 1, with Insert under text flow of Page (but without a style unless it's for paper). "Text Body" styles should never Insert under Text Flow.
Indent or outdent at a first line, between paragraphs, margins and justification must all be in the style.

Last edited by Quoth; 02-18-2020 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 09-28-2020, 02:20 PM   #10
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Hoping to see if there's more insight to be got here ...

I don't believe that the original request to remove underlines from links is totally wacky. I'd like to do it myself. I SUSPECT that Amazon (in it's conversion to Kindle process) is forcing this in a way that has no work-around, but if there is one then I'd like to use it. I'm not going to take a fanatical ideological stand on this use of underlines on links, but ...

First, they're ugly. Yes, that's something of a value judgement, but I can't believe that most people don't agree with it. Second, the universal argument provided in favor of keeping the links is specious -- at least if certain style policies are followed in a document. The argument is always a variant of "But if you don't underline them, then the reader won't know they're links!!". Um ... not quite correct. Because ...

Initially, recognize that what many now regard as a natural phenomenon (or perhaps even an aspect of natural or moral law at this point) is that underlines in etext MEAN its a hyperlink. Actually, however, that's just a CONVENTION. Where there's a convention there are almost certainly equally acceptable alternatives.

In my case, references to footnotes (more properly "notes") and to bibliographic entries (let's call them "bibrefs") will ALL be indicated by a superscript asterisk -- always and without fail. Asterisks occur nowhere else in the book except as note/bibref indicators (and in fact, conceptually, a bibref is just a kind of note). So the reader will (once instructed, at least) KNOW that a superscript '*' MEANS "Here's a LINK". There's nothing magic about using a numeral or underlining or (excessive) underlined numeral to indicate a footnote, end note, or reference citation. And this approach is fully general and without exception (in my book). For devices displaying color, then yes, I do make the asterisk the traditional blue. For devices not displaying color, it's still an asterisk (as, similarly, with lines in the now traditional approach, which are still lines and also not blue).

So that's the case (or a case) for underlining not being necessary, and for the elimination of underlining not affecting functionality or usability. Whew!! Glad that's over with. As I say, I can LIVE with the silly one-character underline under an asterisk -- but it is silly and it is ugly and (in my case) it accomplishes nothing beyond what the bare asterisk itself does. One convention rather than another, and as simple a one as well.

In such circumstances I'd prefer NOT to live with the underlining of links. Is there a way? At this point, any appropriate answer to that question is not of the form "You shouldn't want to do that." Again, I suspect that Amazon (employing the "You shouldn't want to ..." thinking, and maybe trying to "help" a less than careful author) is forcing it upon us. But if there is a way, I'd like to hear it. Thanks.
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Old 09-28-2020, 02:36 PM   #11
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In my case, references to footnotes (more properly "notes") and to bibliographic entries (let's call them "bibrefs") will ALL be indicated by a superscript asterisk -- always and without fail. Asterisks occur nowhere else in the book except as note/bibref indicators (and in fact, conceptually, a bibref is just a kind of note). So the reader will (once instructed, at least) KNOW that a superscript '*' MEANS "Here's a LINK". There's nothing magic about using a numeral or underlining or (excessive) underlined numeral to indicate a footnote, end note, or reference citation. And this approach is fully general and without exception (in my book). For devices displaying color, then yes, I do make the asterisk the traditional blue. For devices not displaying color, it's still an asterisk (as, similarly, with lines in the now traditional approach, which are still lines and also not blue).
So that triple asterisk whether a literal 3 asterisks with spaces or an image used by many books to indicate a scene break should be deprecated And personally, I tend to use superscripted numbers for footnotes, etc. though that is my personal preference. I will admit that I generally colour the numbers blue as an eInk ereader will show it as a shade of gray distinguishing it from black text.

And I don't even want to think about trying to make that work on epub2, epub3, mobi, AZW3 and KFX format ebooks on multiple devices and renderers.

I only believe in "intuitive" elements on alternate Wednesdays.
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Old 09-29-2020, 08:45 AM   #12
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So that triple asterisk whether a literal 3 asterisks with spaces or an image used by many books to indicate a scene break should be deprecated And personally, I tend to use superscripted numbers for footnotes, etc. though that is my personal preference. I will admit that I generally colour the numbers blue as an eInk ereader will show it as a shade of gray distinguishing it from black text.

And I don't even want to think about trying to make that work on epub2, epub3, mobi, AZW3 and KFX format ebooks on multiple devices and renderers.

I only believe in "intuitive" elements on alternate Wednesdays.
Well, we've already been told that saying anything but "how high?" is not "an appropriate response," but...to respond to you, DNSB:

Not to mention, the Pavlovian response. I mean, it's been a bit over a decade now, and what do the readers themselves expect? That the links that are "regular" web links, and the superscripted numbers (or symbols) for endnotes are...yes, you got it!--linked and obviously so.

I would also point out that expecting people to "know" that an un-underscored, uncolored asterisk is linked...man. I don't even know where to start with that. We've done >6,000 books now. And I can honestly say that just as Barnum is widely misquoted as having said that "nobody can ever go broke underestimating the taste of the American people," (effectively Mencken's "intelligence" quote, but hey...) no book formatter or publisher should ever overestimate the experience and knowledge, in the use of eReaders, of the typical eBook buyer.

I've taken an informal poll, of every client I've ever had, that owns a Paperwhite family device, asking them if they are familiar with or know about, "Publisher fonts" or what it means. Want the results?

Nearly 96% never noticed it. NINETY-SIX PERCENT.

Of the 4% that did notice it, one--one person--knew what it did. So much for the endless plans of my customers, who blithely assured me that "hey, I'll put a note in the front-matter of the book that tells my readers to turn ON publisher fonts!" Yup, lotsa luck with that.

Or how about the fact that Kindle ebooks don't open to the goddamn cover or the front-matter, for that matter? They open to the main body of the story or content, well past the front-matter. Who's going to see or notice that note? Or one about "clicking astersisks," even though unidentified as links? The one lousy guy out of 1,000 that actually back-pages through the front matter? You think if people actually read the front-matter, that Amazon would auto-magically open the books to Chapter 1? Not bloody likely. Everything that they do is based upon their user data, including the 2013-14 "let's start opening the books at Chapter 1" thing.

OR, how about those of us, who after a decade in the biz, routinely suggest to our customers that even (with all due respect to my colleague, DNSB) though the appearance is traditional, it might be a kinder, gentler thing to do, to change all the superscripts to something a bit easier to click[9], instead? As it's more tap-area, for the finger? Is there anything that could be smaller than an asterisk?

Oh, and speaking of Amazon, let's not forget Kindle Quality Notices. You guys know, those pesky little emails that you get from Amazon, when a SINGLE CUSTOMER COMPLAINS about your editing, your grammar, your use of "ain't" or misspellings, OR, bad formatting or formatting that defies Amazon's Formatting Guidelines. And how they not only tell you to fix it--but if you continue to defy them, they put a yellow notice up on your Amazon sales page, telling all prospective buyers that the publisher produced the book with formatting deficiencies--and if you continue to defy them, they'll remove it from sale.

But hey...sure, why not? Be a trailblazer, a pioneer. Remove those pesky underscores.

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Old 09-29-2020, 10:13 AM   #13
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Is there anything that could be smaller than an asterisk?
Stripping away all the emotion and the "we-shouldn't-deviate-from-what-we're-doing-because ... well ... that's-what-people-are-used-to" overall philosophy -- in virtue of which we'd still all be using MS-DOS (or worse, 3270s on mainframes), and definitely not hypertext, and certainly not hypertext with pop-up footnotes -- and understanding that someone whose business is creating products acceptable to current convention must conform to that convention, and that I'm definitely not in that position, and acknowledging that at this point in my life I'm not going to be doing an Edward Tufte thing and strike a blow for formatting freedom and innovation, and that I've just got to stop this run-on sentence at some point ...

We are in fact left with this quite accurate observation concerning the noble asterisk. In response to this I can only agree, but point out that something like the Unicode "circled i" ("information") character seems to work quite nicely (at least in English and several other Western languages). Appropriately sized, something like it is a pretty decent "noticeable, but not intrusively so" indicator.

For my own part ...

Hey, look ... My book is a one-off. I'm likely going to avoid any publishing house with it (this was the plan from the beginning), in part to avoid certain editorial or conventional constraints -- and suffer the risk. But I would like to know how to do something, or (even more important) whether something can be done. And this particular issue about underlining links arose in the context of an overall design I had for a general/principled approach to handling links/bibliographic citations/footnotes. But ...

I've just spent two days of rather intense empirical investigation (read "essentially debugging") of the Kindle implementation of footnotes. And conclude that they are of VERY limited use. In some ways the Amazon handling of them is quite good. They actually seem thoroughly to parse the XHTML involved and retain ALL the structural information. But then they just decide to ignore a lot of it with respect to what they're willing to represent in a footnote. So at this point -- purely as a matter of practicality -- I think I'm going to retreat to the current lowest common denominator conventions since I simply don't seem to have access to the control I need in order to get what I really want. And so avoiding the underlining of certain things as a link indicator is no longer a direction I see as viable since I'm not able to implement the overall navigation design that required it.

But if there's something I've missed here about Kindle footnotes and what you can expect to put into them, please let me know. If I could get them to display decent structural complexity and active links, I might go back to my original navigation ideas. Basically, all I wanted to do is to have a link to a standard formatted bibliographic entry (possibly containing an external link) and have that displayed in a pop-up footnote as it appears when viewing the bibliography section itself. Seemingly a bridge too far.
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Old 09-29-2020, 11:27 AM   #14
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People who don't click/tap asterisks (or whatever other minimally inviting content) to check if they are hyperlinked to a (foot)note, don't want to see the footnote anyway. People who don't want to see footnotes are better served with uncolored, un-underlined, unobtrusive text.
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Old 09-29-2020, 12:57 PM   #15
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People who don't click/tap asterisks (or whatever other minimally inviting content) to check if they are hyperlinked to a (foot)note, don't want to see the footnote anyway. People who don't want to see footnotes are better served with uncolored, un-underlined, unobtrusive text.
That is indeed one of the arguments that I have had with myself. Of course, I've also had it in a somewhat more contentious manner with my wife (who is a VERY experienced UI design and documentation expert and who just won't go for that argument She is willing to go grudgingly with "Well, if you make the link indicator OBVIOUS, then that may be okay.").

With apologies to A. Lincoln, "You can satisfy all of the readers some of the time and some of the readers all of the time, but you can't satisfy all of the readers all of the time." The same is true if you substitute "reading theorists" for "readers".
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