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Old 08-16-2020, 12:23 PM   #46
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I know that running a remote desktop session to my Windows laptop takes a lot less resources than running Windows via an emulator on my Mac.
Are you sure that it is even remotely comparable (pun intended)? Smartphones are not very powerful at all when it comes to desktop or even notebook CPUs. They never will, simply because you are limited to a very tiny amount of power you can draw on a smartphone. An idling computer cpu draws more power than a smartphone cpu at full load. There is no magic bullet that makes a smartphone super power efficient.
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Old 08-16-2020, 07:39 PM   #47
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Are you sure that it is even remotely comparable (pun intended)? Smartphones are not very powerful at all when it comes to desktop or even notebook CPUs. They never will, simply because you are limited to a very tiny amount of power you can draw on a smartphone. An idling computer cpu draws more power than a smartphone cpu at full load. There is no magic bullet that makes a smartphone super power efficient.
I had to go back and reread. I believe we were debating whether Windows was "running Android apps in emulation" in the Surface Duo ad, or whether it was some form of remote session where the app is running on the Surface Duo and appearing on Windows.

It is my contention it was the latter. Else, why show it at all with the Duo? You can already run Android apps with an emulator on Windows. Nothing near as slick as the Surface Duo add.

Anyway....I use Windows often enough that I'm hoping this ability to seamlessly run Android apps...even if they are actually running on your phone or tablet...comes to all Windows/Android device combinations.

As for "mobile chips being fast enough to run emulators" - I'd say we are already there. Lots of game emulators run on mobile chips. Windows on ARM already runs on a Qualcomm, pretty much regular smartphone chip (with a few enhancements). The Mac developer kit is running Mac on Apple Silicon with a 2 yr old iPad Pro chip.

And yes....all ARM chips are "automatically more energy efficient than any Intel x86 CHIP". That's why we never have had an Intel x86 phone.
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Old 08-16-2020, 09:02 PM   #48
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And yes....all ARM chips are "automatically more energy efficient than any Intel x86 CHIP". That's why we never have had an Intel x86 phone.
Umm... perhaps a bit of research might be called for. There have been several phones based on Intel's x86 architecture, the last ones being announced a couple of years back (just after Intel announced they were dropping their Atom ultra-low power (for x86) chips). See Intel’s Last Atom in Smartphones: A 2018 Benchmark for a bit more information.
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Old 08-16-2020, 09:50 PM   #49
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I had to go back and reread. I believe we were debating whether Windows was "running Android apps in emulation" in the Surface Duo ad, or whether it was some form of remote session where the app is running on the Surface Duo and appearing on Windows.

It is my contention it was the latter. Else, why show it at all with the Duo? You can already run Android apps with an emulator on Windows. Nothing near as slick as the Surface Duo add.

Anyway....I use Windows often enough that I'm hoping this ability to seamlessly run Android apps...even if they are actually running on your phone or tablet...comes to all Windows/Android device combinations.

As for "mobile chips being fast enough to run emulators" - I'd say we are already there. Lots of game emulators run on mobile chips. Windows on ARM already runs on a Qualcomm, pretty much regular smartphone chip (with a few enhancements). The Mac developer kit is running Mac on Apple Silicon with a 2 yr old iPad Pro chip.

And yes....all ARM chips are "automatically more energy efficient than any Intel x86 CHIP". That's why we never have had an Intel x86 phone.
You missed the entire point I was making. Your assumption was, that running a virtual machine is inherently slower than doing a remote desktop session. Based on your experience of running your laptop in a VM on your Mac vs remote. Emulating a very low powered (both wattage and instruction wise) smartphone OS is a lot simpler. At best it will run just as fast as on the phone if remoted, and much faster when done through emulation.
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Old 08-17-2020, 09:10 AM   #50
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You missed the entire point I was making. Your assumption was, that running a virtual machine is inherently slower than doing a remote desktop session. Based on your experience of running your laptop in a VM on your Mac vs remote. Emulating a very low powered (both wattage and instruction wise) smartphone OS is a lot simpler. At best it will run just as fast as on the phone if remoted, and much faster when done through emulation.
I already know that emulating Android on windows is resource intensive and runs slow.
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Old 08-18-2020, 08:22 AM   #51
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Who is Surface Duo for?
It is easy to overthink it:

https://www.windowscentral.com/who-surface-duo

Microsoft said it openly at their intro dog and pony show:

Quote:

The answer to who should buy Surface Duo is simple, and I think a lot of our core audience is overanalyzing it. Surface Duo is for Surface enthusiasts and those that rely on Microsoft's services. It is also for people who want a different Android experience that is more focused on productivity and creativity. That is a niche group, but niche isn't a bad thing when it comes to new technology.

This hypothesis is not me riffing or taking a guess. Microsoft's chief product officer Panos Panay has said this multiple times.

In an in-depth interview with Fast Company, Panay says matter of factly that Surface Duo is for "Surface fans who live in the Microsoft app ecosystem." Panay reiterates the position again in the Surface Duo press presentation (embedded above), which I implore you to watch. Towards the beginning, Panay states that Duo is about "challenging conventional thinking … that leads to building new categories," and after the Surface Duo sizzler reel, he remarks, "We built this product for Surface fans, there's no question about it, for people who love Microsoft …." Later Panay gives a meta-analysis that Duo is "the Microsoft you love and the Android you know."

And that's it. Microsoft is not playing 4D chess.

Surface Duo is not here to defeat Samsung or Apple. Surface Duo means to start a new conversation, and it's doing that. Surface Duo is about what mobile computing could be and how it can be better. Surface Duo has a lot of interest and curiosity, even from those with no plans to buy one, which is the whole point of it.

Will that lack of mass purchasing always be the case? Of course not. I've stated in our podcast that Surface Duo is about testing the theory of dual-screen devices. It's a stripped-down, core experience that will go into real people's hands to see what they do with it. Future iterations of Surface Duo will add those features that are glaringly absent in this iteration. Microsoft is also hoping Surface Duo drives other device makers to embrace the concept, too — it's not just for them.
Anybody remember the ULTRABOOK?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrabook

They arrived as high-end ultraportable laptops at prices closer to $1000 than $100.

Fast forward five years and the tech required to make those ultralights has moved down market enough to allow dozens of models well under $299.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...6XPBZ1J4&psc=1

(A couple years back, I got the precursor to the above for $169, *new*.)

Similarly, if you hunt around for Surface Pro clones, you can find them all over. The kickstand in particular is all over, in product half the price of the Surca models:

https://www.windowscentral.com/best-...ows-10-tablets

So, as the OP days, if you need a phone, get a phone.
The Duo does't exist for that.

The Duo exists as a (very expensive, even for MS) test for a new category of device (that, actually isn't all that new) to see how big a market exists for a pocketable productivity device with full modern connectivity.

It is a new approach but the category has been around as long as tbere have been PCs. Ms took a strong stab at it 'round the turn of the century in the form of H/PC and H/PC Pro:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handheld_PC

One of the first convertible computers came out of that:

https://www.hpcfactor.com/reviews/ha...m/clio-c-1050/

I had one.

Superb. (At the price I got them: $299 new. Excellent ebook reader.)

Bottom line: don't think of Duo as a phone or tablet but as a pocket computer. Son of H/PC.

The reason the thing is so pricey is twofold:

One, there is a lot of really sophisticated ($$$) tech in the thing. Back to Windows Central:

Quote:

Proprietary everything is expensive. Surface Duo has the world's thinnest touch display that supports inking in a mobile device. The battery, the motherboard, the inking processor, the dual sensors, the antenna design, are all custom made and not mass-produced. That drives up costs. Anyone who studies the Bill of Materials (BOM) for a smartphone knows the display is the most expensive part. That's true here too, especially when you have two, and they have touch, pen support, and a wide color gamut.
There's also this:

https://www.cnet.com/pictures/inside...t-surface-duo/

The hinges in particular are a tour de force: easy to move on purpose, hard to move by accident.

The second reason for the high price is simpler: those that need it (and they exist, not by the million but certainly by the tens of thousands) *really* need it. They may not know it yet but MS hopes it's love at first touch.
People have been buying Folios and Librettos and their asian kin for literally decades. And they've never been easy to get stateside so the price has always been high.

So no, the thing isn't for the likes of us.
But it has a niche.
And the concept and some of the tech will move down market as soon as asian manufacturers get their hands on one and start copying the form factor for much cheaper versions.
(MS is contributing its dual screen extension of the open version of android.)

The thickness? Up.
Dual batteries, no. One will do.
The fancy hinge? Replaced by an old fashioned friction, maybe geared, laptop-style hinge.
Cellular connectivity? Yes, but also WiFi only and first.
Price? $500 to start with.

Start the timer...

(And yes, a version with dual eink using the MS android extensions is innevitable. That will probably run closer to $700, though.)

Oh, and don't forget Neo with the Dual Screen Windows optimizations.
And not far behind (2022?) an ARM-based Neo.

MS is back to their roots, looking for markets that don't exist just yet. Pushing the tech.
Hopefully they'll stick with their bets longer, this time around. They were right on smartphones, ebooks, tablets, and convertibles. And quit all too soon. (Monkey boy short attention span. Nadella seems more patient.)

We'll know soon enough how it plays out.
I just hope it does well enough to spawn a two-screen Fire and/or Kindle.
Or Onyx.
Something more targetted at reading.
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Old 08-18-2020, 09:30 AM   #52
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I watched the presentation. Other than "fits in a pocket", I don't see why any/all of the good ideas can't be implemented on any table, Android or iOS. I do think they've done some nice work with making the software work nice across two screens. That would work just as nicely across two windows on the same screen. Both Android and iOS support this on their tablets.

The nice integration between the Surface Duo Android apps and Windows...I definitely want to see that broadly adopted.

A two screen device with a hinge....I'm just not seeing the extra goodness over a simple flat tablet....certainly not anywhere close to the price premium.
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Old 08-18-2020, 11:31 AM   #53
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I watched the presentation. Other than "fits in a pocket", I don't see why any/all of the good ideas can't be implemented on any table, Android or iOS. I do think they've done some nice work with making the software work nice across two screens. That would work just as nicely across two windows on the same screen. Both Android and iOS support this on their tablets.

The nice integration between the Surface Duo Android apps and Windows...I definitely want to see that broadly adopted.

A two screen device with a hinge....I'm just not seeing the extra goodness over a simple flat tablet....certainly not anywhere close to the price premium.
Well, for starters it fits in a pocket instead of a briefcase.
And dual screens are less fragile than current foldable screens.
Plus it shows the way for future products, if foldable screens get more durable and drop in price.

And it supports pen and ink as a data type. How many tablets do it natively, everywhere on Android? How many android tablets support two windows with two arbitrary apps at once?

It's not for you.
It's not for me, either.
But that doesn't mean it's not for *anybody*.

People said much the same about Ultrabooks; too expensive, just a thinner laptop, no optical drive...

It's a niche product: as in, it's not for everybody. Just enough to justify the R&D (not trivial) and make a reasonable product. It's not a mainstream product but ask yourself, is any $1400 phone a mainstream product? Or tablet?

Is HoloLens? Surface Hub? Surface Studio? Even Surface Laptop?
None is mainstream.

Yet MS is raking in Billions annually off its Surface hardware.
All are expensive, all part of a unified *corporate* IT ecosystem, tied together by Microsoft 365. And all are inspiring Me2 copies, like Google's Jamboard, Apple's mythical Augmented Reality gadget coming... Real. Soon. Now...

Industry leadership isn't just a matter of being the only supplier of a given category: there's also opening up new categories that start as niches but expand to become major categories on their own, bring in competitors for a slice of the pie. Think: Sony eReader, Echo, Apple Watch.

Duo could be another Echo...
...or it could be another eVilla.

Only time will tell how many people find Duo worth *their* money.
It's not worth my money now but maybe one of its descendants...?
TBD.

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Old 08-18-2020, 02:16 PM   #54
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How is Microsoft's Surface different and better than the usual touch screen?

I've tried the Surface Go and to me it's merely a tablet running the full Windows 10 (in tablet mode). I was disappointed because I thought it would be more than that.
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Old 08-18-2020, 02:42 PM   #55
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Only time will tell how many people find Duo worth *their* money.
It's not worth my money now but maybe one of its descendants...?
TBD.
I'm all for experimentation and innovation. I like what Msft has done with the software, but would prefer they bring those nice touches to iPad and Android tablets. I really hope they mature that Android/Windows integration technology and don't leave it as an exclusive for this class of product.

I love my iPad mini, and I was more than happy with the much lower cost Amazon Fire HD 8" tablets. But I'm just fine either using my phone instead when I'm in a "pocket situation".

I understand your point about "what it says about the future". The original iPhone truly was more "promise" than "delivery". Maybe we will see Msft get back into the phone game, with an Android phone.
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Old 08-18-2020, 04:05 PM   #56
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I've tried the Surface Go and to me it's merely a tablet running the full Windows 10 (in tablet mode). I was disappointed because I thought it would be more than that.
What did you want it to do? Prepare dinner?

The Surface Go is a tablet running full Windows 10 (tablet mode is optional).

Surface Pro is more powerful and more expensive. I think both are nice.
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Old 08-18-2020, 04:11 PM   #57
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The nice integration between the Surface Duo Android apps and Windows...I definitely want to see that broadly adopted.
I wish they hadn't abandoned Project Astoria. I would love to run a couple of Android apps on my Surface.

Incidentally, I misspoke earlier. It wouldn't run apps in an emulator. It was a way for developers to quickly and easily port apps designed for Android to Windows. So the apps would have run on Windows like any of the other apps you get from the Microsoft store.
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Old 08-18-2020, 05:10 PM   #58
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Incidentally, I misspoke earlier. It wouldn't run apps in an emulator. It was a way for developers to quickly and easily port apps designed for Android to Windows. So the apps would have run on Windows like any of the other apps you get from the Microsoft store.
No reason Windows should be able to run java apps. Just need to reproduce the Android API's.

I'm looking forward to Apple Silicon Macs. iOS apps will run natively.
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Old 08-18-2020, 05:13 PM   #59
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I'm looking forward to Apple Silicon Macs. iOS apps will run natively.
I'm surprised Apple didn't do that a long time ago.
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Old 08-19-2020, 02:52 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZodWallop View Post
I'm surprised Apple didn't do that a long time ago.
They've clearly been working on it for years. It will be interesting to see what the performance of the 1st gen Apple Silicon Macs are to latest Intel Macs.

I still need to run x86 Windows and Linux on my Mac, so I don't think I'll be an early adopter. Well, unless the rumored $799 price of the Macbook Apple Silicon is true. Then I will be tempted. I've loved my gen 2 Macbook, it's a terrific travel machine and "just powerful enough" for most office tasks.
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