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Old 02-22-2020, 12:02 PM   #61
fjtorres
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I've long thought it it mildly amusing that the brothers Grimm collected/collated stories whichwere indeed Grim. Pratchett played on the serendipitous similarity of spelling too, with The Sisters Grim (Agoniza and Eviscera) in his excellent homage to fairy stories, The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents
I've wondered if Andrew Lang assembled his fairy books for kids after reading Grimm and his wig flew off.

The original GRIMMS was not intended for kids but rather was a collection of old folk tales. They did try to water them later down but even then... Their original idea was fine. They shouldn't have bothered. Just stick on a big "R : For mature readers only" sticker.

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Old 02-22-2020, 01:04 PM   #62
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The folk tale collecting started in 17th French Salons. It was only in the Victorian era they started doing kids versions.
"bowdlerization is a pejorative term for the practice, particularly the expurgation of lewd material from books. The term derives from Thomas Bowdler's 1818 edition of William Shakespeare's plays, which he reworked in order to make them more suitable for women and children. He similarly edited Edward Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire." — Wikipedia

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis appreciated the work of Lang, his wife and friends collecting the tales, though Lang & Co weren't as bad as Thomas Bowdler, they did tone them down a bit. Nothing like as much as Disney does. Tolkien mentions them in one case lamenting that they were toned down for kids.

It's really worth collecting all the tales edited by Lang and his wife and some translated by themselves or friends. Most are on Gutenberg which also has an index to the coloured Fairy books. Ironically it wasn't Lang's main writing focus though it's what he's most famous for now.
There are other Victorian authors worth reading, some collected and edited and some wrote good new stories in the old styles (George MacDonald). Early 20th C includes the classic "The King of Elfland's Daughter" Lord Dunsany (1924). Unsurprising that Lewis was a fan of George MacDonald and I think both mention Dunsany.
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Old 02-22-2020, 10:51 PM   #63
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Indeed I noted that we depend on the translations to English. I've watched some Chinese and Japanese films based on their legends (with subtitles, many in B&W). Some of which are accessible in English. Generally excellent compared to Disney syrup.

I'm against censorship, but I really wonder should there be a massive import duty everywhere outside the USA on the perverted and distorted Hollywood versions of history (Pocahontas) and myth/fairy (Anderson's Mermaid, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Mulan, Braveheart, Moana, Aladdin and Norse).

You seem to be under the misapprehension that they're supposed to be somewhat accurate, but really, let's face it, their only purpose is to make money. To that end Hollywood is free to twist the story however it wants in order to meet the goals of profit.
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Old 02-23-2020, 01:45 AM   #64
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Indeed I noted that we depend on the translations to English. I've watched some Chinese and Japanese films based on their legends (with subtitles, many in B&W). Some of which are accessible in English. Generally excellent compared to Disney syrup.
Personally, what I love about watching most subtitled movies is the sheer amusement from the (mis)translations. At times, I wonder if the major qualification for translating subtitles is not being fluent in either language. Some of this is due to trying to translate idioms but some seems more like trying to make sense out of a machine translation.

As for Disney syrup? Have you watched Chinese made martial arts movies? Japanese anime films? Film makers around the world have produced a lot of crap. If anything, Theodore Sturgeon was an optimist.

I repeat Sturgeon's Revelation, which was wrung out of me after twenty years of wearying defense of science fiction against attacks of people who used the worst examples of the field for ammunition, and whose conclusion was that ninety percent of SF is crud. Using the same standards that categorize 90% of science fiction as trash, crud, or crap, it can be argued that 90% of film, literature, consumer goods, etc. is crap. In other words, the claim (or fact) that 90% of science fiction is crap is ultimately uninformative, because science fiction conforms to the same trends of quality as all other artforms. —Theodore Sturgeon
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Old 02-23-2020, 05:14 AM   #65
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Have you watched Chinese made martial arts movies? Japanese anime films? Film makers around the world have produced a lot of crap. If anything, Theodore Sturgeon was an optimist.
I only watch the good ones. One of my sons has way too much spare time and is fussy. He researches the Chinese and Japanese stuff. We used to watch one a week together. He has titles that when I pointed at them I got a grunt. No suggestion we should watch. I can supply a list if anyone is interested. We do also watch some Hollywood. Except one of the last I picked was the wrong movie. It was a remake. Arrgh! Well, it was €1 in CEX. Couldn't find anything I wanted or on my TBV list last few CEX visits.
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Old 02-23-2020, 07:42 AM   #66
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I repeat Sturgeon's Revelation, which was wrung out of me after twenty years of wearying defense of science fiction against attacks of people who used the worst examples of the field for ammunition, and whose conclusion was that ninety percent of SF is crud. Using the same standards that categorize 90% of science fiction as trash, crud, or crap, it can be argued that 90% of film, literature, consumer goods, etc. is crap. In other words, the claim (or fact) that 90% of science fiction is crap is ultimately uninformative, because science fiction conforms to the same trends of quality as all other artforms. —Theodore Sturgeon
I prefer the common rendering of "Sturgeon's Law": "90% of everything is crap". It fits in as a corollary of Murphy's Law.
Once you accept the universality of mediocrity nothing will disappoint you and you can focus on finding whatever fits your tastes. Because not everybody shares the same definition of what consitutes "crap" despite the many who think their tastes universal.

The great thing of the internet-enabled content world is there is so much available the producers and distributors can give up tbe delusion of being able to please everybody and instead can focus on whatever niche they *can* please, be it kids, literati, or soap opera adicts.

Some people do enjoy tired old tropes, in mystery or anything else. Some love reality TV or old Danny Kaye movies. Or 19th century penny dreadfuls. It no longer impacts the rest of us.

As long as one can find amusing entertainment it no longer matters what the "faceless masses" consume. "Live and let die" applies.
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Old 02-23-2020, 08:39 AM   #67
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Personally, what I love about watching most subtitled movies is the sheer amusement from the (mis)translations. At times, I wonder if the major qualification for translating subtitles is not being fluent in either language. Some of this is due to trying to translate idioms but some seems more like trying to make sense out of a machine translation.

...
It's always amusing to watch one of the subtitled martial arts movies, when one of the characters says something in English and see how it's translated in the subtitle.
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Old 02-23-2020, 01:01 PM   #68
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...Especially with kids... No need to introduce them to reality until they're old enough for the GRIMS or LANG. With appropriate guidance they can enjoy them as harmless fantasies and develop an eye for fun stories.
I first read Grimm fairy tales in third or fourth grade, during free time in class. They were shocking and dark and I loved them. Same when I read the original Pinocchio.

I wonder if we shield kids too much.
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Old 02-23-2020, 01:08 PM   #69
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It's always amusing to watch one of the subtitled martial arts movies, when one of the characters says something in English and see how it's translated in the subtitle.
Yep, but sometimes I think it is to save space.

I'm also amused when one of the the words has been long adopted into English, but some synonym is substituted, even if it is longer.
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Old 02-23-2020, 02:11 PM   #70
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Some love reality TV
That would be me.

If I'm not feeling up to concentrating on a complicated storyline due to stress or pain or just tiredness I love watching competition reality shows -- Project Runway, The Great British Bake-Off, Top Chef, American Ninja Warrior, Face Off, and many more less known -- decorating, glass-blowing, body-painting, whatever, as long as it's mostly civilized.

I just wish there were even more of them. I don't know much about the costs of producing/acquiring/airing tv shows but I'd have thought that by now I'd at least be able to see more of the ones from other English speaking countries. I know there have been versions of Project Runway in at least Canada, England, and Australia. I'd be happy to watch them between seasons of the US one.
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Old 02-23-2020, 03:18 PM   #71
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That would be me.

If I'm not feeling up to concentrating on a complicated storyline due to stress or pain or just tiredness I love watching competition reality shows -- Project Runway, The Great British Bake-Off, Top Chef, American Ninja Warrior, Face Off, and many more less known -- decorating, glass-blowing, body-painting, whatever, as long as it's mostly civilized.

I just wish there were even more of them. I don't know much about the costs of producing/acquiring/airing tv shows but I'd have thought that by now I'd at least be able to see more of the ones from other English speaking countries. I know there have been versions of Project Runway in at least Canada, England, and Australia. I'd be happy to watch them between seasons of the US one.
I'd add Forged in Fire to the list of reality shows that I will watch.
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Old 02-23-2020, 04:16 PM   #72
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I'd add Forged in Fire to the list of reality shows that I will watch.
Hum, when I think reality shows, I tend to think Survivor and Dancing with the Stars, shows with very little informational value. There were actually a few "reality" shows that I found interesting from an informational point of view that I never really considered a reality show. Things like how they forge swords now, how they can make a specific part with a special machine, how a commercial kitchen actually works. I just find these kind of things interesting.
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Old 02-23-2020, 04:46 PM   #73
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I'd add Forged in Fire to the list of reality shows that I will watch.
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Old 02-23-2020, 05:06 PM   #74
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Yes, I confess, I don't loathe the competitive-type shows that also provide some kind of value in terms of information. I've seen Forged in Fire and although it's a bit dopey, in terms of the whole pitting one against the other DRAHMAH thing, I am fascinated with what they can do. I spent a summer working in a historic "village" environment, in which we had the whole schmear--farriers, candle-makers, glass-blowers--and I always found the glass-blowing absolutely mesmerizing.

The makeup/American Beauty things, though...yeesh. I freely admit to having loved PR for many seasons, but I burned out on it and I felt that the quality of the competitors really tanked the last few years for the same sort of "drahmah" and other factors--and I couldn't even make it through one episode of the newer version with Siriano and that model. I understand that a new show with Klum and Gunn is launching, but...I dunno. It kinda feels like it's well past its sell-by date.

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