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Old 01-22-2020, 09:11 AM   #61
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I enjoyed the Name of the Rose, but it was a long time ago, and I was more patient then.

I also read Foucault's Pendulum. Great first chapter, rest of the book was a slog, though an interesting idea. Not recommended.

Rushdie...massively overrated IMO.

I can't get into Heinlein (except for Starship Troopers). The style seems juvenile to me. The characterization and dialogue so shallow.

Stephen King is a great writer, but I find his books too slow and too long. I got through Salem's Lot, and enjoyed it, but I felt there was too much lead up and characterization, then the actual story was too short and undeveloped. Kind of like an iceberg, but in a bad way. I'd like to read his other books, but I see the length, and I give up. Started the Shining recently. Doubtless I'll try again sometime. I don't know how such a long-winded author can succeed in the last fifty years. I acknowledge he is a genius. Dan Brown can write long books, but his involve more actual story where something happens, even if slowly.

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Old 01-22-2020, 12:23 PM   #62
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I enjoyed the Name of the Rose, but it was a long time ago, and I was more patient then.

I also read Foucault's Pendulum. Great first chapter, rest of the book was a slog, though an interesting idea. Not recommended.

Rushdie...massively overrated IMO.

I can't get into Heinlein (except for Starship Troopers). The style seems juvenile to me. The characterization and dialogue so shallow.

Stephen King is a great writer, but I find his books too slow and too long. I got through Salem's Lot, and enjoyed it, but I felt there was too much lead up and characterization, then the actual story was too short and undeveloped. Kind of like an iceberg, but in a bad way. I'd like to read his other books, but I see the length, and I give up. Started the Shining recently. Doubtless I'll try again sometime. I don't know how such a long-winded author can succeed in the last fifty years. I acknowledge he is a genius. Dan Brown can write long books, but his involve more actual story where something happens, even if slowly.
I recently read Starship Troopers. Another one, I'd wish I'd not bothered.
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Old 01-23-2020, 12:52 AM   #63
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To be fair about Heinlein, much of his writing WAS intended for juvenile readers. I enjoyed some of his books, until he got to the final "Lazarus Long and Maureen" books, when he began obsessing about incest (including teenage girls and their fathers -- ewww!) Those were the ones I wish I had not wasted my time on.

I loved Starship Troopers, and the Verhoeven film seemed little to do with the book, with the exception of the title and the character names.
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Old 01-23-2020, 12:59 AM   #64
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@curtw --- very delayed comment --- for a confirmation of your opinion, see Mark Twain's essays on "The Literary Offences of Fenimore Cooper."

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Old 01-23-2020, 10:03 AM   #65
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To be fair about Heinlein, much of his writing WAS intended for juvenile readers. I enjoyed some of his books, until he got to the final "Lazarus Long and Maureen" books, when he began obsessing about incest (including teenage girls and their fathers -- ewww!) Those were the ones I wish I had not wasted my time on.

I loved Starship Troopers, and the Verhoeven film seemed little to do with the book, with the exception of the title and the character names.
The CGI Series Roughnecks: Starship Troopers Chronicles is more faithful to the book.
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Old 01-23-2020, 02:17 PM   #66
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To be fair about Heinlein, much of his writing WAS intended for juvenile readers. I enjoyed some of his books, until he got to the final "Lazarus Long and Maureen" books, when he began obsessing about incest (including teenage girls and their fathers -- ewww!) Those were the ones I wish I had not wasted my time on.

I loved Starship Troopers, and the Verhoeven film seemed little to do with the book, with the exception of the title and the character names.
I think it safe to say that Time Enough For Love would not be considered one of Heinlien's juvies.

Not so oddly, Time Enough For Love was the last Heinlien book (chronologically) that I read. He was just going off in a direction that I didn't care for. I did like his stuff up through the 60's, though I wasn't a huge fan of Stranger in a Strange Land.
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Old 01-23-2020, 02:23 PM   #67
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The CGI Series Roughnecks: Starship Troopers Chronicles is more faithful to the book.
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Oddly enough there were actually 5 movies in the Starship Troopers franchise. I did see the first one, but not the rest. Strange, I don't remember a group co-ed shower scene in the book.

Rumor has it that they were working on a reboot that was closer to the original book. I suspect it's another of those "still trying to line up finance" things.
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Old 01-23-2020, 04:12 PM   #68
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I loved Starship Troopers, and the Verhoeven film seemed little to do with the book, with the exception of the title and the character names.
The film is Verhoeven's satire of the perceived fascist elements/tone of the book.
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Old 01-24-2020, 06:27 AM   #69
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The film is Verhoeven's satire of the perceived fascist elements/tone of the book.
I'm not sure I would call it a satire. That would give it too much credit. I'm also pretty sure fascist doesn't mean what he thinks it does.
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Old 01-24-2020, 10:20 AM   #70
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I'm not sure I would call it a satire. That would give it too much credit. I'm also pretty sure fascist doesn't mean what he thinks it does.
If you contrast it with RoboCop then yeah, his Starship Troopers displays the same kind of bombastic satire. Of course, Verhoeven never read the novel. He found it boring after a couple of chapters and had his script writer summarize the story for him.
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Old 01-24-2020, 10:58 AM   #71
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I liked Have Spacesuit will Travel as a kid. I read Stranger in a Strange Land a bit later. It was...all right. In those days I figured writers were wise with knowledge to impart.

I read I think it was Time Enough for Love, and recall wading through torturous pages of genetic justification why a brother and sister could mate. It was at that point that the penny dropped. This so-called great writer was just crap. It was an epiphany of sorts. Prior to that I thought published books and writers must be good.

I have yet to find anything I like by Heinlein except Have Spacesuit will Travel and Starship Troopers. I've got a copy of Tunnel in the Sky which looks all right. Partly I just don't like his tone. I find it grates. I guess some like it.
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Old 01-24-2020, 06:56 PM   #72
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I liked Have Spacesuit will Travel as a kid. I read Stranger in a Strange Land a bit later. It was...all right. In those days I figured writers were wise with knowledge to impart.

I read I think it was Time Enough for Love, and recall wading through torturous pages of genetic justification why a brother and sister could mate. It was at that point that the penny dropped. This so-called great writer was just crap. It was an epiphany of sorts. Prior to that I thought published books and writers must be good.

I have yet to find anything I like by Heinlein except Have Spacesuit will Travel and Starship Troopers. I've got a copy of Tunnel in the Sky which looks all right. Partly I just don't like his tone. I find it grates. I guess some like it.
The thing to remember about Heinlien is that he had three very distinct periods in which he wrote. The juvies were all his early stuff. While Starship Troopers wasn't technically a juvie, it was the last of that time period. There were a lot of good books from this time period. Revolt in 2100 (a collection of short stories and novellas) is my favorite. It was paired with Methuselah's Children (originally a serialized novella published in 1941, but released as a stand alone novel in 1958)

Stranger in a Strange Land was a turning point novel for him. IMPO, the best book from that second time period was The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. It's still my favorite Heinlien novel.

Time Enough for Love was the next turning point novel. IMPO, everything from Time Enough for Love onward was drek.
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Old 01-25-2020, 07:28 AM   #73
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The thing to remember about Heinlien is that he had three very distinct periods in which he wrote. The juvies were all his early stuff. While Starship Troopers wasn't technically a juvie, it was the last of that time period. There were a lot of good books from this time period. Revolt in 2100 (a collection of short stories and novellas) is my favorite. It was paired with Methuselah's Children (originally a serialized novella published in 1941, but released as a stand alone novel in 1958)

Stranger in a Strange Land was a turning point novel for him. IMPO, the best book from that second time period was The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. It's still my favorite Heinlien novel.

Time Enough for Love was the next turning point novel. IMPO, everything from Time Enough for Love onward was drek.

Thanks, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is on my TBR list. I bought it as an Amazon deal of the day for 2.99 a while back. I remember as a kid my brother liked Stranger in a Strange Land. Like the David Bowie film of the same title
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Old 01-25-2020, 11:35 PM   #74
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The thing to remember about Heinlien is that he had three very distinct periods in which he wrote. The juvies were all his early stuff. While Starship Troopers wasn't technically a juvie, it was the last of that time period. There were a lot of good books from this time period. Revolt in 2100 (a collection of short stories and novellas) is my favorite. It was paired with Methuselah's Children (originally a serialized novella published in 1941, but released as a stand alone novel in 1958)

Stranger in a Strange Land was a turning point novel for him. IMPO, the best book from that second time period was The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. It's still my favorite Heinlien novel.

Time Enough for Love was the next turning point novel. IMPO, everything from Time Enough for Love onward was drek.
I would like to expand on this. Most of Heinlein's stages, were really the stages of editors he worked with.

He started out with the Campbell years. Much of the "Future History" (But not all!) were Campbell era works (or expansion of those works). They have a particular "tone" to them.

The next big block was his juveniles. Some excellent, some very good, some so-so. I would recommend The Star Beast or Citizen Of the Galaxy.

At the same time as the juveniles, he wrote for the "slick" magazines. Most of The Green Hills Of Earth was short stories written for the 'Slicks" (Saturday Evening Post, ect.). They have their own "tone", which was what was necessary to get them to sell to that market.

He wrote 3 adult novels in the Juvenile period, The Puppet Masters, Double Star, and The Door Into Summer, which were for still different editors, some of which were heavily edited.

Then there was the third period, post Starship Troopers, where he wrote what he wanted, and then tried to find a market for the results. His name was big enough to do that, by that time. Some great some not-so-great.

The final period was his period, post brain surgery (carotid artery bypass). Frankly, I didn't like them.

Pick the period you like, and avoid the rest.
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Old 01-25-2020, 11:40 PM   #75
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pwalker8, maybe we should start a Heinlein thread.
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