Author Issues E-Book Challenge

[pricecw]

Originally Posted by Clytie

pricew, he's also released that book (and more) for Kindle, so you can just grab it from Amazon. He gets a better deal if you buy directly from him, though.

I'm definitely in favour of supporting an author who's trying to adapt. Sometimes it's even a bit of support at a key time that changes your life. $5 isn't much to contribute to digital change, you get a great book out of it, and the promise of a long-requested sequel if he can afford to do it.

Scott Nicholson said:



This is great! It's definitely the sort of added participation and expanded medium we can attain via ebooks. Keep up the good work (while I check out your books ).

As I said on another thread, but same point to make, this is a big point for authors trying to market themselves. In the past, a book was paper, and there were a couple of formats, and you went to a store, and bought the book. Now, in the e-book, their are multiple formats, and what's more, we don't pass green stuff back and forth to buy them with.

So if an author chooses to release in only certain formats, or only take payment in certain forms, he may reach an audience willing to trade money for his work, and then at the last minute lock them out, and loose the sale.

Now, this is me a customer. He reached me (through word of mouth of others), I went to his site, then he lost me. I will not do business with PayPal. I don't have a kindle, and don't want or need the kindle apps on my devices (computer, or readers (if it is available, which it isn't on my main leisure reader)). So, this tells me the author really wants me to bend my principals to do business with him, because he doesn't want to do the work to support multiple formats and payment options (say smashwords if he doesn't want to do it).

So, net, one lost sale that is somewhat vocal this time, how many others for the same reasons? To effectively sell to the most customers, you need to make it easy for them to say, sure, I'll try that. Make us jump through hoops, we will move on and read something else.

--Carl

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by pricecw

So, this tells me the author really wants me to bend my principals to do business with him, because he doesn't want to do the work to support multiple formats and payment options (say smashwords if he doesn't want to do it).

I admit I'm flummoxed by this comment.

Please understand: I'm not trying to suggest that there's something wrong with what you've said, just that I don't think I'm following you.

I agree that only offering the book in two formats is pretty limited, however if I were going to pick two, I'd have to say that kindle/mobipocket and ePub are arguably the most widely used at present and pretty accessible. Especially since the files are not DRMed, which makes conversion pretty easy. In the case of ePub, just changing the file extension to .ZIP will give you access to the source HTML file, which is extremely flexible.

As for the payment, I realize that this is my perspective and as such is heavily influenced by my particular circumstances and experiences, but I regard PayPal as one of the most desirable payment options. In fact, I strongly prefer it to credit cards because I don't have to give out the CC number while still using a CC, plus it's just easier to use than a CC.

He's specifically said that he's feeling his way into this whole e-commerce thing, so I assume that his limited formats and payment options may be part of that "figuring things out" process. As such, he might actually appreciate having someone suggest others, and explain why they might be worth his while to look into. From his blog posts, he seems like a fairly reasonable fellow, anyway.

But what really has me curious is the question of which specific principles you have involved in the format and/or payment options. Is that something you'd be willing to explain further? (Or point me to an explanation if you've already shared it here somewhere?)

Again, I'm not trying to pick an argument, I'm genuinely curious as to what's motivating your view on the matter.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by NatCh

I admit I'm flummoxed by this comment.

It is simple-- having the payment go through a "credit card" like company that he has something against is a moral outrage. A quick, easy payment method used by millions of people every day that is an alternative to needing credit cards (and the seller having to have an expensive account for taking them) is-- without the risk of exaggeration-- a million times worse than Hitler.

(Yeah, I went there-- I Godwined.)

[NatCh]

Just one question, ardeegee: was that tongue in cheek?

[pricecw]

Originally Posted by NatCh

I admit I'm flummoxed by this comment.

Please understand: I'm not trying to suggest that there's something wrong with what you've said, just that I don't think I'm following you.

I agree that only offering the book in two formats is pretty limited, however if I were going to pick two, I'd have to say that kindle/mobipocket and ePub are arguably the most widely used at present and pretty accessible. Especially since the files are not DRMed, which makes conversion pretty easy. In the case of ePub, just changing the file extension to .ZIP will give you access to the source HTML file, which is extremely flexible.

As for the payment, I realize that this is my perspective and as such is heavily influenced by my particular circumstances and experiences, but I regard PayPal as one of the most desirable payment options. In fact, I strongly prefer it to credit cards because I don't have to give out the CC number while still using a CC, plus it's just easier to use than a CC.

He's specifically said that he's feeling his way into this whole e-commerce thing, so I assume that his limited formats and payment options may be part of that "figuring things out" process. As such, he might actually appreciate having someone suggest others, and explain why they might be worth his while to look into. From his blog posts, he seems like a fairly reasonable fellow, anyway.

But what really has me curious is the question of which specific principles you have involved in the format and/or payment options. Is that something you'd be willing to explain further? (Or point me to an explanation if you've already shared it here somewhere?)

Again, I'm not trying to pick an argument, I'm genuinely curious as to what's motivating your view on the matter.

Nope, I don't take things as an argument if I can interpret them any other way. I won't do PayPal, because I feel it is a corrupt group with no safeguards. I have had them promise one thing, and when it mattered, refused to follow through with the promise. If you search PayPal on google, you will find any number of stories of PayPal problems. I refuse to do business with them on principle, I will not support them, and will advocate against them. Even on things I really want, I will go without rather than do business with them.

So no PayPal, no epub (which is my preferred format anyway).

Next, he offers on Amazon Kindle, granted that is a good chunk of the market, but by far not the majority. Again, I don't have a kindle, and I on principle do not buy a product, paying money, to have to do more work myself, when that should have been done already. I don't want the kindle reader on my PC, I have no need of it. If an author wants to sell a book on the kindle, but not other formats, then I will generally just pass on the book and read something else.

My point here was trying to show how an author, by making a few simple assumptions, will miss a lot of potential customers even when they have done all the marketing to hook them. The author may have always had good luck with PayPal, but by making the assumption it will work for everyone, they have locked out a segment of reading public. They did all the work, got the word spread, brought the customer to their door, and then lost them. All on an assumption of good enough.

Same with Kindle. He states that he wants 10,000 sales, but then limits how those sales will be made. Instead, he should be working all the sales channels, getting his book on places like smashwords, B&N, Borders, iTunes, etc. Places that will change the payment problems to non-problems, and resolve the format issues for people. If he is selling directly, he should take PayPal, google checkout, etc.

DRM only comes into play for me in that I don't by DRM'd books (I can strip it but don't need to bother). I don't need to convert them for him. This may sound harsh, but I have a stack of good TBR books, adding an author that expects me to pay him so I can do his job, is insane. If the book was free, then I may decide the format conversion was the price I was paying, but if I am trading money for a good, on principle, I am going to trade my money for a good in the format I can use.

--Carl

[pricecw]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

It is simple-- having the payment go through a "credit card" like company that he has something against is a moral outrage. A quick, easy payment method used by millions of people every day that is an alternative to needing credit cards (and the seller having to have an expensive account for taking them) is-- without the risk of exaggeration-- a million times worse than Hitler.

(Yeah, I went there-- I Godwined.)

Nope, not worse than Hitler, but bad enough I don't support businesses that treat customers like crap. As explained above, he wants my money, he should provide options.

This is not just the e-commerce issue. I once went to Sears when I got out of the Marine Corps, and was married and had a home. Wanted to buy some things for the house, tools, lawn mower, etc. Had all the tools in the cart, the salesman helped pick the mower, etc. Went to pay, and got out my CC, they told me Sears card or Cash or check. None of which I was prepared to use (no checkbook with me, no cash (in that amount) with me, no sears card, no desire to have one). The salesman pointed me to the ATM out in the mall. I walked past it and they lost a sale, found the tools elsewhere. What's more, this broke the shopping ideas I had (from grandparents and parents) that Craftsman was the tool brand to have, and I don't think I have bought anything from Sears in the last 20+ years.

--Carl

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by pricecw

Nope, I don't take things as an argument if I can interpret them any other way.

I much appreciate that, I try to do the same myself, but ... well, let's just say I've not found that attitude to be universal.

In any event, I thank you for taking the time to elaborate on what you meant. (I also want express gratitude for your Service, by the way)

Originally Posted by pricecw

I won't do PayPal, because I feel it is a corrupt group with no safeguards. I have had them promise one thing, and when it mattered, refused to follow through with the promise. If you search PayPal on google, you will find any number of stories of PayPal problems. I refuse to do business with them on principle, I will not support them, and will advocate against them.

I can certainly understand this. My own experiences have been just the opposite, but that obviously doesn't change other folks' experiences one bit.

Originally Posted by pricecw

... I on principle do not buy a product, paying money, to have to do more work myself, when that should have been done already.

I also can understand that view, even though I don't share it -- I'm kinda picky about things like font (I really prefer sans serif) so I view it as an advantage that I can get into the "guts" and make adjustments, but that's me.

Originally Posted by pricecw

My point here was trying to show how an author, by making a few simple assumptions, will miss a lot of potential customers even when they have done all the marketing to hook them. The author may have always had good luck with PayPal, but by making the assumption it will work for everyone, they have locked out a segment of reading public. They did all the work, got the word spread, brought the customer to their door, and then lost them. All on an assumption of good enough.

I see your point.

Although I'm also thinking about how he's admitted up-front that he's new at this, and feeling his way along. I suspect that he might appreciate suggestions on how he can be more accessible, especially since he's exploring the whole e-book thing in an effort to do just that.

It may not be a case of assuming good enough, it may be a case of seeing that these formats and payment options as the best first step. Certainly I would think that if he is, indeed, interested in being accessible, he may simply not realize some of the other options that are available.

I wouldn't encourage you to do something you feel strongly against doing, but I would suggest that you might consider slipping the poor n00b (Mr. Stackpole, I mean ) a clue as to what he might do better.

[pricecw]

Originally Posted by NatCh

I much appreciate that, I try to do the same myself, but ... well, let's just say I've not found that attitude to be universal.

I agree, not universal, but it would be nice if it was. Sort of a golden rule type thing (or the society your in version of same).

Originally Posted by NatCh

I wouldn't encourage you to do something you feel strongly against doing, but I would suggest that you might consider slipping the poor n00b (Mr. Stackpole, I mean ) a clue as to what he might do better.

Actually, that is why I posted. If I got the book and read it and enjoyed it, I would be ahead, but if I did nothing, didn't post, just moved on, I wouldn't have been behind. By posting, I hope that other authors (and this one), will see that simple assumptions can be pointed to as why something may not sell as well as they hoped. In that way, maybe down the road I come out ahead because I have more reading choices, and authors are getting more to produce them. That is the ideal outcome.

--Carl

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by pricecw

Nope, not worse than Hitler, but bad enough I don't support businesses that treat customers like crap. As explained above, he wants my money, he should provide options.
l

But there is some expense involved in setting up for taking a "real" credit card (or so I hear-- I'm not a business.) And yes, there are horror stories with Paypal-- as there are with pretty much every business. But most of the time, it works-- or they would be out of business. (My horror-ish story-- someone in Germany once got into my Paypal account somehow-- spent close to $400 from my bank account-- Paypal e-mailed me about unusual purchases, I confirmed I didn't make them, within a few days they refunded me the money.)

There is the possibility that those who refuse to use Paypal are considered an eccentric minority-- and one that he is willing to write off. Just as there are people who don't use/can't get credit cards of any type, and want to send cash or money orders through the mail-- most e-commerce businesses are willing to write off those potential customers, considering the risks and costs of dealing with cash more than that minority is worth.

[Ramen]

Sad to say but I'm with the privacy people. I wanted to buy both books but I'm not going to supply shipping information when nothing is being shipped and I'm not going to state my age.

Paypal and other CC processors share that kind of information with sellers even if there is no package to send but that's a different problem.

[Teyrnon]

Originally Posted by Ramen

Sad to say but I'm with the privacy people. I wanted to buy both books but I'm not going to supply shipping information when nothing is being shipped and I'm not going to state my age.

Age? Why would he need your age? Hmm, actually the form in question is probably a default of whatever application he's using to power his store. Which is apparently Zen Cart. I would imagine it was designed with physical goods in mind.

[Scott Nicholson]

I was dubious but I've changed my mind. My friend Tim Pratt raised $10,000 through a similar effort and can now afford to write. Anything that helps writers write is a good thing. And Michael has been very generous with his "free" writing in blogs and posts.

Scott Nicholson

[pricecw]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

But there is some expense involved in setting up for taking a "real" credit card (or so I hear-- I'm not a business.) And yes, there are horror stories with Paypal-- as there are with pretty much every business. But most of the time, it works-- or they would be out of business. (My horror-ish story-- someone in Germany once got into my Paypal account somehow-- spent close to $400 from my bank account-- Paypal e-mailed me about unusual purchases, I confirmed I didn't make them, within a few days they refunded me the money.)

There is the possibility that those who refuse to use Paypal are considered an eccentric minority-- and one that he is willing to write off. Just as there are people who don't use/can't get credit cards of any type, and want to send cash or money orders through the mail-- most e-commerce businesses are willing to write off those potential customers, considering the risks and costs of dealing with cash more than that minority is worth.

And that is fine, the point I was making still stands, he is writing off customers, but if he is willing to do that, then no harm no foul. From my side, I just won't read the books (no big deal), and on his side, his potential market is smaller (his call to decide if it is a concern).

--Carl

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by pricecw

And that is fine, the point I was making still stands, he is writing off customers, but if he is willing to do that, then no harm no foul. From my side, I just won't read the books (no big deal), and on his side, his potential market is smaller (his call to decide if it is a concern).

Like I said, I don't know the hassle and expense to get an account with a credit card company to get an account for accepting "real" credit cards-- I just know that there is some non-trivial barrier to entry, and is in fact one of the main reasons Paypal was created (I've been using it since it was called X.com.) And I don't know how many potential buyers there are that are willing to use "real" credit cards on-line but not Paypal. It might be a bad business decision for him to not accept credit cards for all I know-- or it might be on the wrong side of the law of diminishing returns.

[pricecw]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Like I said, I don't know the hassle and expense to get an account with a credit card company to get an account for accepting "real" credit cards-- I just know that there is some non-trivial barrier to entry, and is in fact one of the main reasons Paypal was created (I've been using it since it was called X.com.) And I don't know how many potential buyers there are that are willing to use "real" credit cards on-line but not Paypal. It might be a bad business decision for him to not accept credit cards for all I know-- or it might be on the wrong side of the law of diminishing returns.

And again, there are other services to get this, google has one that hasn't had the backlash of paypal. PayPal isn't the only service of this type.

Other ways to accept other forms of payment, smashwords and those type of small publishing houses. He is also leaving out iTunes and B&N and Borders, and a bunch of others.

He doesn't have to take credit cards, he doesn't have to do any of these things. However, to set a very high goal (10,000 units of a book that most fans have), is not realistic without using all the resources available to move that book. All I am trying to point out is every assumption and choice comes at a cost, both current and future.

--Carl