Amazon has removed Download & Transfer option

[slm]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Define "most new books". There are plenty of new books sold without DRM by other retailers. Not Amazon, though.

Yes there are, but I don't think any of them are "sold"--I think they are all licenses. For example, Kobo's terms of use contains restrictions on use that restrict the use to "personal", noncommercial use. I don't think you can impose that restriction on a physical book:

the download of, and access to any Digital Content is available only to Customers and is intended only for such Customers’ personal and non-commercial use. Any other use of Digital Content downloaded or accessed from the Service is strictly prohibited.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by slm

Yes there are, but I don't think any of them are "sold"--I think they are all licenses. For example, Kobo's terms of use contains restrictions on use that restrict the use to "personal", noncommercial use. I don't think you can impose that restriction on a physical book:

the download of, and access to any Digital Content is available only to Customers and is intended only for such Customers’ personal and non-commercial use. Any other use of Digital Content downloaded or accessed from the Service is strictly prohibited.

Yeah, but it's impossible to actually enforce any of it with a DRM-free file, no matter what has been written.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Define "most new books". There are plenty of new books sold without DRM by other retailers. Not Amazon, though.

But even those books vendors generally state that you are purchasing a license and not actually owning the book. Since unlike Amazon, none of the other ereader brands I own have ever deleted books from my ereaders, I feel pretty safe that neither the books on my ereaders or in my calibre library will disappear on me.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by DNSB

But even those books vendors generally state that you are purchasing a license and not actually owning the book.

As I already said, it's not possible to actually enforce it with a DRM-free file, once you've downloaded it. Assuming you've backed it up, no one can take it away from you. Whereas with a DRMed file, if the DRM server was shut down, your file would no longer be readable.

[lkmiller]

Yeah, if a purchased ebook is DRM-free or I've removed the DRM, I consider it mine. They can "pry it out of my cold, dead hands".

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by DNSB

But even those books vendors generally state that you are purchasing a license and not actually owning the book. Since unlike Amazon, none of the other ereader brands I own have ever deleted books from my ereaders, I feel pretty safe that neither the books on my ereaders or in my calibre library will disappear on me.

Technically with paper you only buy a licence to read the content. You can do what ever you like to the physical item, but not the actual content. At the end of the day a seller or publisher can only enforce such an ebook licence in court in a civil copyright case. They have to prove damages to get compensation even if they "win". Even "winning" is nearly impossible unless they prove you copied it to the Internet for public download, or similar (free, library – like Open Library/Archive Org – or charges makes no difference).

So those "licences" on selling sites are meaningless. Regular copyright laws apply. Photocopying or scanning an entire paper book to have a personal security copy or copying an ebook file for personal use is no different.

[John F]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

As I already said, it's not possible to actually enforce it with a DRM-free file, once you've downloaded it. Assuming you've backed it up, no one can take it away from you. Whereas with a DRMed file, if the DRM server was shut down, your file would no longer be readable.

Psst, the DRM'd file may not be readable, but you may be able to strip the DRM.

And there is "social" DRM.

For the the short term there is airplane mode on most readers, so no server contact (hopefully)? In the long term, if you need a new ereader you may be in trouble.

And if you stick with a "popular" reader, the pattern seems to be that the DRM will eventually be cracked.

And I recall people saying they copy the Adobe folder structure from reader to reader (so don't need to contact a server once a book was downloaded)?

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by John F

And I recall people saying they copy the Adobe folder structure from reader to reader (so don't need to contact a server once a book was downloaded)?

Yeah, but I guess if Adobe shut their DRM servers down, new devices would no longer support Adobe DRM at all, and so if your current device died, you'd be SOL. You could buy an older, used device, but those would not last indefinitely either.

Considering this you couldn't really say you owned the book, IMO.

Of course there's DRM removal and all that, but the question was about owning the book legally, and while DRM removal for personal use may be legal in the US (not sure about that), it certainly isn't legal in the EU.

("You" in my post is rhetorical, of course, not specifically you).

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by lkmiller

Yeah, if a purchased ebook is DRM-free or I've removed the DRM, I consider it mine. They can "pry it out of my cold, dead hands".

And they will. There seems to be no way to legitimately pass on "purchased" ebooks through inheritance.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

And they will.

They have no way to do that with any DRM-free file. If one has made one's backups, of course, and let one's heirs know about it.

It may not be legal, but this is another instance where it's just not possible to enforce the law.

[gbm]

Copyright law contains those restrictions on physical books, you may sell it, give it away but you can not make copies and sell them. With ebooks all you really need to do is follow copyright law, no need for a "license".

This is Baen's terms of use:

Baen Books. No DRM. You own it; it’s yours.

https://createsend.com/t/d-44BF3C53E...40EF23F30FEDED

Yeah they put it at the end of the monthly newsletter. I believe those will override any "licenses" Amazon or any other retailer. All they require is that you follow copyright law.

bernie

Originally Posted by slm

Yes there are, but I don't think any of them are "sold"--I think they are all licenses. For example, Kobo's terms of use contains restrictions on use that restrict the use to "personal", noncommercial use. I don't think you can impose that restriction on a physical book:

the download of, and access to any Digital Content is available only to Customers and is intended only for such Customers’ personal and non-commercial use. Any other use of Digital Content downloaded or accessed from the Service is strictly prohibited.

[Quoth]

Retail T&C are not always enforceable or even legal. In almost all cases they would have to take civil action and prove loss / damages. There is nothing in copyright law that stops the transfer in entirety to someone when you are dead.

"Shrink wrap" (internal )T&C are unenforceable in most countries. Copyright is what counts.

This "battle" was fought and lost by "publishers" and sellers of software*. Even transfer while you are alive is possible if there could be proof that you have no copies. They can only sue for breach of copyright. Anything else in T&C is misleading.

Loans/Subscriptions are different.


[* packages costing $10s of thousands, so the vendor risked going to court]