Pricing and Policies ... what is fair?

[Timboli]

NOTE - I have focused in another thread, on how silly the thinking of some publishers is. In this thread I would rather we focus on authors, with a little commentary on publishers maybe ... you can't really avoid them.

DISCLAIMER - Naturally any views and determinations expressed in the following are mine, and some maybe of those who may feel the same in part or whole ... that latter very doubtful though, considering how different we all are, and the different journeys we have all had/are having.

Writing a book costs time and money and no small amount of skill.
The author should be compensated for that, even if it is just the joy of such a wonderful achievement.
Many of course want more than that, and a good number get so lucky, and why not ... if others like their work, then why not reward them in the hope of more but also as a thank you, and a show of appreciation.

The only question then, is how much they should be rewarded. Something that is probably best left to the market rather than someone choosing some quite arbitrary amount they think is fair. I say arbitrary, because how do you honestly judge such things. You cannot and should not judge it on liking alone, as people have such varied tastes ... and often more than a few biases etc.

I'm not even sure you can judge on just the hard work either, especially as for some the words flow more easily, and others not so much, especially when considering quality etc. It is not wrong to think some authors are more caring and diligent than others, and there are various motivations playing their part.

Some write a book in as little as a few months (maybe weeks) and some take many years. Some create something new from the ground up, while others are continuing a series etc, where much of things have already been fleshed out.

Some books take or require a lot of research. And when a book or story has been finished, the word count can vary hugely, and is not really an indication in many cases of the amount of work, as much can get culled during editing etc. It is not as simple as just paying based on word count.

Some authors write with great love of what they are doing. Some write out of necessity to survive or due to obligations (deals, etc). Some write to a trend or fashion, following the money so to speak. Some of course, write to please fans or for acclaim from peers. Many are a mix of those and more.

Some books are a hell of a lot more worthy than others, but often that is only in the mind of the reader or critic.

Many authors of course, experience a whole range of things when writing, especially as they are impacted by the world around them and by their health. When writing fiction especially, it is about imagination and inspiration, and those can be impacted by all manner of things.

If a writer experiences a tough time writing or finishing a book, should they be compensated the same as someone who did it easily, or should they get more?

Determining the reward or compensation for an author, can be fraught with many difficulties & variables.

Certainly in years past, the price of a book was often set based on what readers would likely be willing to pay, and could be genre based as well due to expectations. Often though, a really thick novel could cost the same as one a quarter of that size, and have very little bearing on the years taken to produce.

Were we paying too much for some books or not enough for others?
Hard to know really, as much of course was dependent on overall sales or projections of such. Still, reality has often shown many contradictions when it comes to pricing and policies.

Some publishers reportedly sponsor less popular works, they deem important to mankind (or their own agenda), using profits made on other authors. Some customers think that fair, some not ... especially as the claimed or promoted altruism isn't always readily apparent or believed or even acceptable at times.

Anyway, when it comes to pricing now, are things really that much different (digital vs analogue aside)?

Do we still have that disparity brought about by similar pricing, that is often not based on merit or other relevant factors? Certainly it seems that way with many new or recent releases.

Perhaps now we should look at and more fully consider cost.

Many popular authors are able to dictate some more favorable terms with their publisher. They can get both a lump sum (paid in part or full, up front) as well as the usual royalties etc.

So what does a book cost to provide to the consumer?
Like I said earlier, there is the time and money and effort and skill.
Then there are the editing costs and related.
Then there are the storage and shipping costs, which are hugely more in the case of a physical book.
Then we have advertising and other promotions ... including artwork (cover etc).
Beyond that, it is mostly costs that only apply to physical books ... printing (ink, paper, machines, labor), additional storage and shipping/transport costs, plus display costs, plus any damages or errors or even returns due to lack of sales (many returns are simply trashed/cut up, so losses).
Then there are issues related to secondhand and lending.

Going by logic of course and discounting publishers trying to grab more profit for their sponsoring, ebooks should cost a lot less than their physical counterpart. Many of course don't want to see it that way, and some customers seem to have more money than sense or are so affluent they don't care, or simply don't buy many books and just want to reward the provider(s). Each to their own of course, except where it impacts the average cost for rest of us.

Now lets look at the pricing and how the customer factors, with a simple example.

An ebook goes on sale for $15.
Two thousand people buy it ... and let us assume that if it had been $10 instead, that would have been three thousand people ... though it could easily be more of course.
Now I guess, that the publisher could reason, that the other one thousand will eventually buy anyway, but it will just take a while, with many of course waiting until the price has dropped more to their liking. Time however is money, especially when it comes to investment.

When we look at cost, we certainly have to look at outlay. The usual publishing costs and any monetary advances to authors. Publishers should of course, be seeking to cover any outlay as soon as possible, because they usually have other authors to consider cost wise, and they are in the business to make a profit. So money in the bank earning interest should be an important consideration.

The total profit then in the short term at least, is often more sensible than maximum profit per item on limited sale numbers. Good feeling amongst customers is also important, especially if you care about your authors. And you cannot ignore the fact, that a disappointing read is more so if you paid more for it. Then there is competition, and when money walks it talks, and those with a vested interest should be listening. Angst over cost, can certainly change the views of some in a previously loyal fanbase, especially when so much else is on offer now.

Unlike the old physical book model, there are a lot more authors and books out there now, and publishers no longer have quite the power they once had.

If I had to look for new authors now, I am sure I would feel overwhelmed. Do some of you indeed feel that way?

So sometimes it seems to me, that price is often about control rather than profit ... certainly with some publishers. Control can involve a lot of things, including the possibility of lies to authors and customers, and agendas.

So with all that in mind, how secure can an author feel now?

And how viable is it for many of them, as a long term full-time job?

P.S. Some publishers of course, won't lower to an acceptable price for an ebook, until they have enough physical book sales, in a very real way covering potential losses etc, especially with hard covers. Many of us think that unethical.

[issybird]

You lost me with "fair."

[Timboli]

Fair as in to the Author as well as Customer ... not forgetting the Publisher either.

....

How authors are faring should be of interest to all of us readers.

We know in the past, that many publishers haven't been fair to authors.
Now the role of publisher is very diminished if not missing altogether in the case of Indie authors or those who have gone Indie.

What about us. Have we been fair to authors and are we now? And by extension, publishers.

And have authors and or publishers been fair to us, currently and in the past?

They have books they want to sell and us books we want to buy. It is in both our interests to be fair to one another. They could help the process by being more transparent.

I certainly want all the authors I love or appreciate, to flourish. If not just for the joy they have already given, but also for more from them. I certainly don't begrudge them their due.

[issybird]

Moderator Notice
Political commentary belongs in P&R only. Posts with further comments along those lines will be deleted in their entirety.

[pwalker8]

If you look at the Michael J Sullivan thread in the reading discussion forum, you will see where I posted a quote from his web site on pricing and sales of his first six books when he was an indie. For the most part, the market has set prices ($8-$12) and I am fine with that price point. Looking at Indie that I'm currently reading, Marc Allen Edelheit, prices run from $4 to $7. Once again, I'm fine with that. Both seem to make a good living as an author.

[MGlitch]

If you’re trying to find what’s fair for the authors the question should be what percentage of the sales should the author get. Of course not all author / publisher deals work like this some offer a flat amount some offer a flat amount and percentage, I’m sure the list goes on. Then there are authors like Patterson who farm out books.

Unless you’re buying directly from the author without a middleman of a publisher influencing the price.

[crossi]

I don't know about fair. For me it's more about what I'm willing to pay. For old Harlequins from 20 years ago, I might if it was a favorite author pay $4, for less favorites $2-3. For novels older than 10 years, especially if I've already got them in paper, maybe $5. For new authors, unless the reviews are really terrific, about the same. For favorite authors more than a year old I might go up to $8 (maybe). New releases at $15, no thanks, I'll wait until the price drops. I've got plenty to read while waiting.

[Timboli]

Desiring to stem the tide of those asking what my "Political Comments' were, just let me say for the record, that what I said was more about Economics rather than Politics, and was addressing the sarcasm behind the previous post. Inevitably Economics and Politics crossover, so my apologies to anyone's political sensibilities, that I may have tweaked.

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Unless you’re buying directly from the author without a middleman of a publisher influencing the price.

Unless you directly go to an author's website and purchase from there, even with Indie authors you have a middle entity such as Amazon or Kobo etc.

Many are indeed like that now, and in that scenario the author has a lot more control.

[Barbara1955]

Before they filed & won for Over Pricing my Fav Authors ebooks were $10 & Under. Now these Authors want $20+ No Way now I stuck reading indie authors that think books need only be a page long! I feel ebooks are WAY Over Priced! Guessing that Authors only need 1/2 the fans to heck with the rest of us.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

If you look at the Michael J Sullivan thread in the reading discussion forum, you will see where I posted a quote from his web site on pricing and sales of his first six books when he was an indie. For the most part, the market has set prices ($8-$12) and I am fine with that price point. Looking at Indie that I'm currently reading, Marc Allen Edelheit, prices run from $4 to $7. Once again, I'm fine with that. Both seem to make a good living as an author.

I guess we do see successes on both sides of the Indie divide, which I guess illustrates that both can work in the favor of everybody.

In some cases it seems the number of customers may impact the price, which you can see when you look at C.J. Box and J. Robert Kennedy etc ... and their prices.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Barbara1955

I feel ebooks are WAY Over Priced! Guessing that Authors only need 1/2 the fans to heck with the rest of us.

In some cases I am sure you are right, but whether that is the fault of the author or more likely the publisher I am not really sure. I guess the publisher for economical reasons (to some degree) is bound by the deal they make with popular authors.

I certainly see disparity in prices all the time, even for the same author and publisher. No doubt some agenda is happening, even if it is just some experimentation to see what they can get away with. Other times it may be just to cover losses ... or discounts.

Sometimes the biggest disparity is between prices for different countries.

Is there really any good defense when charging 3 or 4 times the price in Australia for instance, compared to what is paid in America .... not talking a discount sale price ... but taking Exchange Rate into account.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by crossi

I don't know about fair. For me it's more about what I'm willing to pay. ....

Of course it does come down, like you said, to what we are willing to pay, and I certainly have some limits, as do most people I know.

I am happy to up those limits if authors or publishers state a good case, and show real transparency.

I am not someone who goes out looking for the lowest price ever. I am more interested at this stage in my life, at paying what is fair.

I have a program that checks items on my wishlist, and when an ebook gets to a price I find fair, I usually purchase. Now that is tempered by how I feel about some authors, and whether I follow them or not. So I am happier to pay a bit more for what I consider a likely sure winner, as opposed to an author I am feeling like trying out. That bit more though, still needs to be in that fair range.

There are other factors too, that impact what the fair range might be. Like how good their last book was and what the average price for their other books is (if that is much less), and how new the release is, etc.

Fair price for me, also draws upon what I know about a writer. So how good their work is generally and the effort and time put in. So a well done thick novel that took a few years to write, certainly qualifies in my mind for a higher fair price. If they had decided to split their book in two, as sometimes happens, I would usually end up paying more anyway.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Sometimes the biggest disparity is between prices for different countries.

Is there really any good defense when charging 3 or 4 times the price in Australia for instance, compared to what is paid in America .... not talking a discount sale price ... but taking Exchange Rate into account.

No point of complaining about it on various international forums. That will change nothing. I would take the practical approach and buy those books from a cheaper country, so to speak, using VPN. And perhaps ask the local publisher why they charge so much for English-language ebooks (no translation involved or anything). It would be interesting what their reply would be.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

No point of complaining about it on various international forums. That will change nothing. I would take the practical approach and buy those books from a cheaper country, so to speak, using VPN. And perhaps ask the local publisher why they charge so much for English-language ebooks (no translation involved or anything). It would be interesting what their reply would be.

I would expect that it will come down to a combination of laws, contracts and demand. Some locations have laws and regulations that add cost and the contracts between the author and the publisher can vary quite a bit from country to country. Last how much demand is there for English language books in a country where English is not the primary language? And then there is customer and institutional inertia. They charge a price because a price point was set at some point in the past and no one ever bothered rethinking it.

Finding the price that maximizes profits (which is what the seller is trying to do) can be very inexact. Finding the price that is fair to all sides is impossible simply because people have different ideas of what's fair. Is it the price point that keeps bread on the author's table? Is it the price point that maximizes the number of books the buyer can buy? Everyone's rationalizations of the price point they favor is different, and most can come up with some sort of justification of why their preference ought to be the one used.

One interesting experiment is to take book prices in the past and using an inflation tool, project that price to present day. If you do it, you will see that books are actually cheaper now than they were some 35 years ago when I started buying books, especially when you start adjusting for the size of the book.

https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

No point of complaining about it on various international forums. That will change nothing.

Maybe, maybe not.
But that is like saying no protests are ever worthwhile.
Me, I think the more that others know about aberrant behavior, the better.

I would take the practical approach and buy those books from a cheaper country, so to speak, using VPN.

If only that were so. I have already looked deep into this and tried a few things. For me to purchase from the USA for instance, I would need an American a street address and credit card. VPN is not enough on its own.

I have spoken with American friends and we have considered having a joint account that I can use, but when you look deeper it becomes problematical, so I haven't bothered.

And perhaps ask the local publisher why they charge so much for English-language ebooks (no translation involved or anything).

I could, but I have this notion, that respect is a 2-way street, and at the moment I feel disrespected, and I don't engage with others that disrespect. They know what they have done, and it would be foolish to imagine otherwise.

It would be interesting what their reply would be.

Maybe .... but then again, it could just increase the angst, and I might regret saying something.

The only thing I feel that might work, is public knowledge and shaming, maybe a prick to the conscience.