Funny I don't feel like a criminal

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

How do you know? Do you personally research with every link you click on that the host has been granted permission from the copyright holder? If not, you better start as soon as they criminalize downloading. Any link you click on is potentially copyright infringed material. You've probably just been assuming that anything you download up to this point is legal, and you'd probably be right. However, if it becomes a criminal offense to be wrong, you'd better start doing your research. Of course, it's going to be nearly impossible to find that information out.

Fair points. If it goes criminal it would have to be limited to files downloaded and saved on your computer for future use. It couldn't be things people could just stumble across.

They'd have to find ways to catch and prove that people had downloaded and saved copyrighted material to their hard drive. Not just stumbled upon it and had it in their temp cache etc.

As far as people streaming copyrighted material etc.--yeah they can't go after downloaders their. Only the people uploading and hosting the files to stream, or read online etc.

What you probably meant to say was downloading with the specific intent of receiving copyright infringed material should be criminal, but intent is a very tricky thing in court. That's not going to be nearly as clear cut and easy to distinguish as you might think.

Yep, that's what I meant. It is tricky, but if you limit it to having copyrighted files stored on your hard drive (and not just in your temp files etc.) I think it gets a bit more cut and dry.

Harder to accidentally download something, save it in a specific folder, can even have it proven that they've opened the file multiple times (last accessed date on the file, vs. the download date from the info that got them caught etc. Now some people may download something, save it and use it etc. and not know it was copyrighted. But that's just too bad, so sad as ignorance of the law isn't an excuse. And it's not huge deal if it's just a tiny fine that's barely more than what the MSRP is for the file they downloaded illegally.

That's exactly why copyright law talks about distribution of content, not receiving it. Putting the responsibility on the person receiving the content is unworkable.

You're probably right. The stuff I outlined above is workable I think, but probably way more hassle than it's worth, and too little bang for the buck so to speak vs. going after the uploaders.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by clockworkzombie

Speaking of format shifting. I have a multitude of paperbacks and I was thinking of purchasing a book scanner to scan in my treasured books to keep reading them in what ever digital device I use. What are the legalities there?

Whilst I was downloading the free versions of the EE Doc Smith stuff i found text files of the entire lensman series and downloaded these too. Some of these are not available for free.

I cannot purchase these books new. Could I treat it like my CDs? I copy my Cds into iTunes then pack the discs away, I feel a little uneasy about downloading these files and packing my books. I am happy to keep the paperbacks if I can pack them into boxes and not have them invaded by insects etc.

It is interesting I would have no qualms if I scanned them in myself. I understand I should keep my paperbacks that I format shift.

A pity there is not a pay for use publishing industry service to accept my books and giving me a digital copy instead. The first copy of any older book would have to be scanned in but the rest would have greater profit and the paper books could be destroyed or sold in a giant second hand book store where they would make even more money from luddites sneering at our new fangled readers.

I have purchased EE Doc Smith's books twice as my first set, a mint condition late 70's early 80's collection was a victim of the failure of my first marriage. I re-purchased them second hand sometime afterwards though at the insistence of my then new partner (now wife of ten years)

I also found them online as PDF and decided to grab them. I have purchased the books twice, no? At least I can read his works on my PDA or smartphone whilst out and about. That said I would love to see Baen re-release his entire anthology! I would instantly purchase them as I have done with Poul Anderson's Technic saga (Flandry et al)

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by clockworkzombie

Speaking of format shifting. I have a multitude of paperbacks and I was thinking of purchasing a book scanner to scan in my treasured books to keep reading them in what ever digital device I use. What are the legalities there?

Well, that depends on where you are. Perfectly legal here in the US. I seem to recall reading posts on this forum to the effect that it is not, however, legal in the UK. I wouldn't be surprised if there are other places it's not legal as well. I have no idea what the penalty is in the unlikely event someone is caught.

[nikkie]

@ Anyone who has an issue with the "multiple copies" part of this scenario...

Do you write over your disk somewhere between 7 and 32 times any time you move a DRM'd file on your drive? No?

PIRATE!!!

Sorry. For the lols?

[guyanonymous]

Wasn't there an issue several years ago regarding a company that would convert your cds (you mailed them to them) to MP3s that they returned to you along with the cds? That type of service was compared to hiring a college student to do it for you in your house vs. you doing it for yourself on your own equipment. I'm pretty sure that the last of those was found completely legal, but can't remember how the other two panned out.

[clockworkzombie]

Originally Posted by sabredog

I also found them online as PDF and decided to grab them. I have purchased the books twice, no? At least I can read his works on my PDA or smartphone whilst out and about. That said I would love to see Baen re-release his entire anthology! I would instantly purchase them as I have done with Poul Anderson's Technic saga (Flandry et al)

I too would purchase them, because of the cost vs time factor for scanning. I have purchased from Baen and am going to do some more today. The Poul Anderson also has me twitching. I have purchased multiple copies over the years. I have recently started tracking down the Pyramid printing as the Panther editions have been edited more and some of the smaller details removed.

[captcrouton]

Ok, the argument I'd like to make is that the copy isn't actually floating around. Unless your mum is on a boat, I can't see how the file is floating. The kindle isn't buoyant. Not that I've tested it, but I'm guessing.

Yeah, I didn't actually have anything intelligent to say...

[lene1949]

If I can't live without a book - I don't read pbooks anymore - I'll get it any which way I can... It won't hurt anyone, since it's not available to me anyway..

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I know you're joking, but people have actually tried to claim that in the past. Most famously Rupert Murdoch.

This is covered in our posting guidelines:

When you post images, please use the attachment feature rather than directly linking to offsite locations. This way we can ensure that the images won't suddenly disappear. (This is also good netiquette as it is not using someone else's bandwidth.)

Thanks.

[AlexBell]

I've read through all the 84 messages in this thread and am now going to
1. Outline my procedures with copying files, which some of you may consider far worse than that of the original poster, and
2. Mention a very important point which I think will protect me from being sued or charged (or feeling the slightest scrap guilty), and which has not been mentioned so far.

Firstly, my procedures: About once a week I make at least three copies of any ebooks I have bought in the preceding week.
1. When I buy a DRM'd ePub or mobi file I invariably remove the DRM.
2. I then put the original DRM'd file and a copy of the cleaned file on to a 4Gb flash drive for backup.
3. I then put a copy of the cleaned file on to the SD card of my reader, and read the book from there.
4. I have an external hard drive backup system which copies my computer's hard drive at 3 am every morning, and no doubt copies all the ebook files on my computer's hard drive on to the external backup system.
5. If I think I will read the book again I leave the copy on the SD card; otherwise I delete it from the SD card - though it remains on the backup flash drive and (as far as I know) the external hard drive.
6. At no time does anyone else have access to my ebook reader's SD card or my backup flash drive or external flash drive, nor have I ever given or sold copyright ebooks to anyone.

Secondly, the very important point:
1. Neither the original author or his or her estate, nor the publisher, nor the vendor is in any way harmed by these procedures. I pay money for the original copy of the ebook file and each of them receives their fraction of the price. If I made a hundred copies and keep them to myself they still do not lose a cent.
2. This being so any action anyone might take against me, in my opinion at least, would be laughed out of court and I might even be awarded damages.

Can anyone point out any faults in my logic or procedures?

Regards, Alex

[HarryT]

What makes you think you're doing anything wrong, Alex? I certainly see nothing wrong in your very sensible backup procedures. This thread is actually about the rights or wrongs of giving copies of eBooks to other people. You aren't doing that.

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by AlexBell

I've read through all the 84 messages in this thread and am now going to
1. Outline my procedures with copying files, which some of you may consider far worse than that of the original poster, and
2. Mention a very important point which I think will protect me from being sued or charged (or feeling the slightest scrap guilty), and which has not been mentioned so far.

Firstly, my procedures: About once a week I make at least three copies of any ebooks I have bought in the preceding week.
1. When I buy a DRM'd ePub or mobi file I invariably remove the DRM.
2. I then put the original DRM'd file and a copy of the cleaned file on to a 4Gb flash drive for backup.
3. I then put a copy of the cleaned file on to the SD card of my reader, and read the book from there.
4. I have an external hard drive backup system which copies my computer's hard drive at 3 am every morning, and no doubt copies all the ebook files on my computer's hard drive on to the external backup system.
5. If I think I will read the book again I leave the copy on the SD card; otherwise I delete it from the SD card - though it remains on the backup flash drive and (as far as I know) the external hard drive.
6. At no time does anyone else have access to my ebook reader's SD card or my backup flash drive or external flash drive, nor have I ever given or sold copyright ebooks to anyone.

Secondly, the very important point:
1. Neither the original author or his or her estate, nor the publisher, nor the vendor is in any way harmed by these procedures. I pay money for the original copy of the ebook file and each of them receives their fraction of the price. If I made a hundred copies and keep them to myself they still do not lose a cent.
2. This being so any action anyone might take against me, in my opinion at least, would be laughed out of court and I might even be awarded damages.

Can anyone point out any faults in my logic or procedures?

Regards, Alex

It depends on where you live. In some countries simply downloading or possessing the tools to circumvent the DRM or TPM is illegal. Where it's not illegal today there are strong lobby groups trying to make it illegal.

In Canada the latest copyright bill had wording that the consumer could format shift for personal use but circumventing the TPM was illegal.

In Denmark there was a similar law and Henrik Anderson performed the equivalent of what you're describing (only with DVD's) and then he reported himself and challenged them to charge him. I believe the result was a statement that they decided not to pursue it at this time but they didn't acknowledge it was legal.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by darylbrayman

To Harry T. Yes I deleted the book from my reader and computer but that is just to save space.

How long has it been since 2 MB or so of HD space mattered to anyone? That's 1/500,000th the capacity of a $75 hard drive, or $0.00009 worth of space on a DVD.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

How long has it been since 2 MB or so of HD space mattered to anyone? That's 1/500,000th the capacity of a $75 hard drive, or $0.00009 worth of space on a DVD.

It's the concept okay. Kinda like saving energy, resources, planning for the future, leaving something for our grandchildren...

[magicmonster]

Ok. If I converted any paper book to digital format and wanted to reduce the clutter and chance of burning the house down with all the flammable paper laying around what do you do? Do you keep the cover of the book to prove you had a legitimate copy of the book and the recycle the book? What happens if the house still burns down and all your covers are gone but you back up your digital data off site? Do you could scan a copy of the cover but then they would say that your a pirate because you just copied the thing when "someone" scanned the book. Do you take a digital picture of the decapitated book cover with the remains of the book in the picture?

Also there's a chance that someone may pickup the original book that has no cover and will read that. What is a person to do?