Sick of Amazon Kindle books without Page Numbers...

[Apache]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

That is totally cool. Our Ram does not have that capability.
Poorly made is an understatement.
I should have said "General Motors Owner's Manuals need page numbers".
At least I think General Motors does Chrysler, Dodge and Ram.

Chrysler, Dodge and Ram are Owned by Chrysler Fiat. General Motors is an entirely different company. Also Ram is a model of Dodge Truck, not a brand of its own.
Apache

[theducks]

Originally Posted by Apache

Chrysler, Dodge and Ram are Owned by Chrysler Fiat. General Motors is an entirely different company. Also Ram is a model of Dodge Truck, not a brand of its own.
Apache

Actually it now is. You now buy a RAM, not a Dodge RAM as in former years.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Shari:

Out of curiosity, what do you deem as "done properly?"

Hitch

"Done properly" would be, IF the author/publisher feels as if an index is something that is needed for the book, then every reference in the index should link to the relevant section of the book.

Same for references to other parts of the book. An example of this would be "see the section on widgets, page 27" in a paper book. In an ebook, it would say "see the section on widgets" and rather than list a page number (which might not mean the same thing across all readers) the word "widgets" is a link.

Shari

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by theducks

Actually it now is. You now buy a RAM, not a Dodge RAM as in former years.

2014 is the year Dodge and Ram separated. Ours is the 2015.
@Apache: our insurance agent liked to have never found our Ram because she was looking under Dodge.
Auto parts stores are the same way.

[Apache]

I did not realize that. It seems kind of silly to me.
Apache

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by shalym

"Done properly" would be, IF the author/publisher feels as if an index is something that is needed for the book, then every reference in the index should link to the relevant section of the book.

Same for references to other parts of the book. An example of this would be "see the section on widgets, page 27" in a paper book. In an ebook, it would say "see the section on widgets" and rather than list a page number (which might not mean the same thing across all readers) the word "widgets" is a link.

Shari

Ah. Well, as I thought (erroneously, perhaps) I'd mentioned, the flaws with that idea are manifold. A short list, if I may:

1. Firstly, when you say that the word/phrase (from the index) should link to the section referenced (the target), your assumption is that the publisher has correctly identified the sentence, paragraph, or section where the relevant information is actually located. As we all know, in print layout, the indicator is placed at the first position of the page--essentially, the first position before the first letter of the first word at the top leftmost position of the page. The item being referenced is simply "somewhere on that page." The print reader opens the book, and visually skims the page for the item. However, in an eBook, if you link to that same indicator, the item you're seeking could be 1 screen, 2 screens, or 4 screens away from where that target lands.
2. Assuming that the publisher is enlightened, and indicates precisely where the target should land, you then run into the other problem that I thought I'd mentioned (I must have done this somewhere else). If you have ANY item, phrase, sentence, paragraph in the body of the text that is linked to, from more than one entry in the index, then what? You have a many-to-one scenario. So, let's look at that:

You've written an all-encompassing book about dogs. Right? You have a lovely article about Irish Setters. So, in the index, you will find these various entries:

Under I:
Irish Setters

Under S:
Setters, Irish

Under Sporting Dogs:
Setters, Irish AND,

Under Sporting Dogs-->Setters, you'll have:
Irish Setters

However, you have ONE article or entry for Irish Setters, right? Jane comes along, and picks up the book. Curious, she starts thumbing through the Index. She clicks the entry for Sporting Dogs-->Irish Setters.

So, now: how does she get BACK to where she was in the Index? You're thinking, "well, stupid, she hits the BACK button." But not all readers have back buttons.

If you've created the Article, with now 4 inbound links TO it, how does the reader get back where they WERE, before they clicked the outbound link?

This causes issues in both directions. This happens with any type of reference information in a book that may have multiple inbound links. There's no good way to get your reader, reliably, back to where she inended to go. After all, you can't put return links in the single word, right? So, what do you do? The only realistic choice is to put something like this:

[Back to Irish Setters][Back to Setters, Irish][Back to Sporting Dogs-->Setters, Irish][Back to Sporting Dogs-->Setters-->Irish Setters]

...in the body of the book, for each and every piece of text (word, sentence, section, etc.) that has these types of a) inbound links or b) has multiple inbound links from an index or some other resource elsewhere in the book. I think we can all agree that that would be a bit annoying, after a while--right?

More importantly--since arguably, it wouldn't be that hard for the reader to tap TOC, go to the Index entry, and get back to where s/he was--this is ALSO true for cross-referencing inside the body of the book, as well. If you have multiple spots in the book cross-linked to another entry, you have the same exact problem.

If you don't make eBooks for a living, or don't indulge in logic puzzles, or create indices, the "proper way to create indices in eBooks" sounds simple. It's easy to do poorly. It's not remotely simple to do correctly.

Hitch

[Sweetpea]

There are page numbers in ebooks!?!?! My ereader doesn't have pages, so, why should I want to show page numbers?

I can understand pagenumbers in PDF files, but not in reflowing electronic books...

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That indicates that the ebook has been poorly made, not that car owner's manuals inherently require page numbers. My car (a Mini) has an electronic owner's manual, displayed on its central display console, which is entirely hyperlinked.

Well, my C3 has a state of the art display console (The art in this case being sculpture, or possibly finger-painting) so comes with this folding paper thingy

If there was an electronic manual that wasn't an unsearchable pdf then searching would beat an index anyway. Or at least would if car manufacturers didn't make up words or use one manual to cover every model - Apparently my sunroof (that I don't have) has an anti-pinch function.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

There are page numbers in ebooks!?!?! My ereader doesn't have pages, so, why should I want to show page numbers?

I can understand pagenumbers in PDF files, but not in reflowing electronic books...

My primary use for page numbers is for referencing. If I'm writing an academic paper, I need to reference my sources, and the Kindle's ability to match the page numbers of a paper edition of the book is absolutely critical for that. Of course, that's probably not something that's relevant to many people.

[mrscoach]

Does anyone remember the Beverly Hillbillies show? I feel about pages like Jethro Bodine felt about his cereal bowl. "How many bowls you had?" "Just the one. I've filled it 3 times, but I've only had the one bowl."

I just have the one page, I just happen to keep getting new words on that page.

And thank goodness I'm past needing to make references for footnotes and bibliographies.

[DiapDealer]

Jethro Bodine was born with a full set of choppers.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Ah. Well, as I thought (erroneously, perhaps) I'd mentioned, the flaws with that idea are manifold. A short list, if I may:

1. Firstly, when you say that the word/phrase (from the index) should link to the section referenced (the target), your assumption is that the publisher has correctly identified the sentence, paragraph, or section where the relevant information is actually located. As we all know, in print layout, the indicator is placed at the first position of the page--essentially, the first position before the first letter of the first word at the top leftmost position of the page. The item being referenced is simply "somewhere on that page." The print reader opens the book, and visually skims the page for the item. However, in an eBook, if you link to that same indicator, the item you're seeking could be 1 screen, 2 screens, or 4 screens away from where that target lands.
2. Assuming that the publisher is enlightened, and indicates precisely where the target should land, you then run into the other problem that I thought I'd mentioned (I must have done this somewhere else). If you have ANY item, phrase, sentence, paragraph in the body of the text that is linked to, from more than one entry in the index, then what? You have a many-to-one scenario. So, let's look at that:

You've written an all-encompassing book about dogs. Right? You have a lovely article about Irish Setters. So, in the index, you will find these various entries:

Under I:
Irish Setters

Under S:
Setters, Irish

Under Sporting Dogs:
Setters, Irish AND,

Under Sporting Dogs-->Setters, you'll have:
Irish Setters

However, you have ONE article or entry for Irish Setters, right? Jane comes along, and picks up the book. Curious, she starts thumbing through the Index. She clicks the entry for Sporting Dogs-->Irish Setters.

So, now: how does she get BACK to where she was in the Index? You're thinking, "well, stupid, she hits the BACK button." But not all readers have back buttons.

If you've created the Article, with now 4 inbound links TO it, how does the reader get back where they WERE, before they clicked the outbound link?

This causes issues in both directions. This happens with any type of reference information in a book that may have multiple inbound links. There's no good way to get your reader, reliably, back to where she inended to go. After all, you can't put return links in the single word, right? So, what do you do? The only realistic choice is to put something like this:

[Back to Irish Setters][Back to Setters, Irish][Back to Sporting Dogs-->Setters, Irish][Back to Sporting Dogs-->Setters-->Irish Setters]

...in the body of the book, for each and every piece of text (word, sentence, section, etc.) that has these types of a) inbound links or b) has multiple inbound links from an index or some other resource elsewhere in the book. I think we can all agree that that would be a bit annoying, after a while--right?

More importantly--since arguably, it wouldn't be that hard for the reader to tap TOC, go to the Index entry, and get back to where s/he was--this is ALSO true for cross-referencing inside the body of the book, as well. If you have multiple spots in the book cross-linked to another entry, you have the same exact problem.

If you don't make eBooks for a living, or don't indulge in logic puzzles, or create indices, the "proper way to create indices in eBooks" sounds simple. It's easy to do poorly. It's not remotely simple to do correctly.

Hitch

I didn't say it was easy, but IF reflowable ebooks are to be used for reference, then that is what needs to be done. Of course, if all devices/apps mapped page numbers the same, that could also work, but I think we all know *that's* not going to happen.

Shari

[cvkemp]

Originally Posted by mrscoach

Does anyone remember the Beverly Hillbillies show? I feel about pages like Jethro Bodine felt about his cereal bowl. "How many bowls you had?" "Just the one. I've filled it 3 times, but I've only had the one bowl."

I just have the one page, I just happen to keep getting new words on that page.

And thank goodness I'm past needing to make references for footnotes and bibliographies.

I am with you on being past the need to make references for footnotes. And the one page comment is so perfect for me too.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by cvkemp

I am with you on being past the need to make references for footnotes.

Children are not the only people who have to write essays. Some of us enjoy writing academic articles even as adults .

[theducks]

What is with all the permutations still being indexed??

All my readers include a search (I do wish there was a scope: section or all )
Setters
Breeds
Sporting