Conversion Purgatory

[Jellby]

I use the command line all the time. Even for launching programs it's much faster (for me) to just type the name than opening the menu and looking for the program, and then looking for the file I want to open.

"acroread file.pdf" is better than the above.
"ls *-min.jpg" is better than opening a file manager and setting some filter.
"rename Image- Image-0 Image-*" is much faster than selecting the files one by one, clicking on "rename", place the cursor after the hyphen and add a 0 (or searching the net to find a program that would provide a GUI for mass renaming).

But I also use the GUI in Opera and Gimp all the time

[Amalthia]

The part I have trouble with in command line is remembering all the codes. I mean I cmd is easy and release ip or renew ip...but sometimes if you get the order wrong nothing happens and that can be frustrating. Though with wikipedia using command line is easier because they have the important stuff you need listed there like changing directories and renaming files. It's not exactly intuitive if you're new to it.

It took me a bit to figure out how to get dedrm to work because I didn't know everything had to be in the C: directory where I had installed python.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Amalthia

The part I have trouble with in command line is remembering all the codes.

Almost any cli program will tell your the parameters if you type it with none.

If that doesn't work try

command /?

Or

command -?

or

command help

or

command -help

Usually one of those will work.

Of course on Linux/Mac you can hope there is a man page for it.

man cp

Will give you the directions for the cp (copy) command.

BOb

[phenomshel]

Whoa! I take a day off to read on my new EZ reader and come back to this?

[Andybaby]

Originally Posted by llasram

lolololololol

lolololololololololol

lololololol

Oh dear.... Must... stop... laughing....

Whew.

But I can see how someone who's only used the Windows command shell might think that -- it has almost no history support, rudimentary completion of filenames only, and completely counter-intuitive interaction with the windowing environment. But I can assure you that on every other OS every software and IT professional I know does everything via command-line tools except for tasks where a key aspect of the task itself involves visual feedback (e.g., Web browsing).

since all the other posts pretty much say this.

Yes, for the 1/1000 people who know how to use it, use it daily, have fun with it, for the 999 people who dont, there is no reason to. spend the 10 minutes and create a GUI if you plan on releasing it.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Andybaby

since all the other posts pretty much say this.

Yes, for the 1/1000 people who know how to use it, use it daily, have fun with it, for the 999 people who dont, there is no reason to. spend the 10 minutes and create a GUI if you plan on releasing it.

You are totally missing the point. The point is that it is impossible to create an GUI that is as powerful. GUI are nearly always more limited and if they are not they are as hard to use as a command line interface (look at photoshop or blender).

[bwaldron]

Originally Posted by Andybaby

Yes, for the 1/1000 people who know how to use it, use it daily, have fun with it, for the 999 people who dont, there is no reason to. spend the 10 minutes and create a GUI if you plan on releasing it.

How about if there isn't a GUI, don't download or try to use it?

There is nothing inherently mysterious or difficult about a command prompt.

GUI's can be fine, and the best interface for certain types of tasks. But a command-driven system is sometimes the best choice as well.

[phenomshel]

Originally Posted by tompe

You are totally missing the point. The point is that it is impossible to create an GUI that is as powerful. GUI are nearly always more limited and if they are not they are as hard to use as a command line interface (look at photoshop or blender).

I don't think I agree with this, having been on both sides of the fence, so to speak. I think it is most definitely possible to create a GUI that is just as powerful as a command line, without it being impossible to use. I use photoshop on a regular basis, and I'd sure hate to have to do all those steps in a command line!
The real issue here lies in that everyone learns differerently. Some people are visual learners and appreciate a GUI, and others can visualize in an abstract manner and therefore prefer a command line interface. It doesn't mean either is better than the other, it just proves that, like everything else, personal preferences play a very strong part in the way an individual finds easiest to accomplish a given task.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Andybaby

Yes, for the 1/1000 people who know how to use it, use it daily, have fun with it, for the 999 people who dont, there is no reason to. spend the 10 minutes and create a GUI if you plan on releasing it.

It is much more difficult to create a cross platform GUI than it is CLI.

As a matter of fact, the CLI programs can all pretty much be integrated in the Explorer shell and run with a few mouse clicks. I plan on doing a Visual Guide on the Wiki to demonstrate this, I just haven't had the time yet. Plus when I am at home I prefer to use my Mac.

BOb

[tompe]

Originally Posted by phenomshel

I don't think I agree with this, having been on both sides of the fence, so to speak. I think it is most definitely possible to create a GUI that is just as powerful as a command line, without it being impossible to use. I use photoshop on a regular basis, and I'd sure hate to have to do all those steps in a command line!
The real issue here lies in that everyone learns differerently. Some people are visual learners and appreciate a GUI, and others can visualize in an abstract manner and therefore prefer a command line interface. It doesn't mean either is better than the other, it just proves that, like everything else, personal preferences play a very strong part in the way an individual finds easiest to accomplish a given task.

My point was that for some tasks like in photoshop a GUI is very suitable. But in photshop you do advanced thing and if you think a command line interface is complicated you will find the photoshop interface complicated.

For some tasks you have to have the abstract concepts to be really effective. And in photoshop you have a lot of abstract concepts (like e.g. layers) that you have to understand ow they work and how they are related to everything else.

[phenomshel]

Originally Posted by tompe

My point was that for some tasks like in photoshop a GUI is very suitable. But it do advanced thing and if you think a command line interface is complicated you will find the photoshop interface complicated.

For some tasks you have to have the abstract concepts to be really effective. And in photoshop you have a lot of abstract concepts (like e.g. layers) that you have to understand ow they work and how they are related to everything else.

Yes...but I DO use photoshop and don't find it complicated?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by phenomshel

Yes...but I DO use photoshop and don't find it complicated?

I do not believe you used it effectively the first time you saw the program without reading the manual assuming you had not used a similar program before.

With "complicated" I only meant that you have to do some reading before you can use it. It is not just open the program and use it effectively or for hard tasks directly.

People that always want a GUI seem to think that the learning phase always can be eliminated.

[Andybaby]

Originally Posted by bwaldron

There is nothing inherently mysterious or difficult about a command prompt.

To the average user who I cater to, CMD is mysterious, it is extremely dificult to pick up and use, it requires many many hours of training and manuals to understand, it requires the memory of specific commands which are based on terminology 20 years out of date.

The average computer user doesnt even know hot to type in a URL Correctly. and downloads viruses like crazy. and using google other than for finding pictures of cats or porn.

I dont think its impossible to create a GUI that can be as powerful as a command prompt for any given program. but the case is not difficult to understand, Most computer users have no idea how to use a command prompt. therefore most users would never try to use a program that requires it.

My entire point is that it is a dated system which the average user has no previous knowledge about.

now for anyone who would still disagrees with me, cut the cable to your keyboard and go buy a punch card machine. because nothing is as powerful as being able to control the input to your computer on a bit by bit basis!

[bwaldron]

Originally Posted by Andybaby

now for anyone who would still disagrees with me, cut the cable to your keyboard and go buy a punch card machine. because nothing is as powerful as being able to control the input to your computer on a bit by bit basis!

Heh. Been there, done that, dropped and scattered boxes of Hollerith cards on the ground.

[phenomshel]

Originally Posted by tompe

I do not believe you used it effectively the first time you saw the program without reading the manual assuming you had not used a similar program before.

With "complicated" I only meant that you have to do some reading before you can use it. It is not just open the program and use it effectively or for hard tasks directly.

People that always want a GUI seem to think that the learning phase always can be eliminated.

No, I do not think that at all. There most certainly IS a learning curve with a GUI also - I'm just saying that FOR ME, the learning curve for GUI is a LOT less steep than that for a command line and/or scripting.
Photoshop I picked up nearly instinctively, because I've used graphics manipulation programs for years. But, almost ANY graphical interface is easier for me to pick up than lines of code. I'm a visual learner, I suppose.
As I pointed out earlier.. Everyone is different. What is easy for you is not easy for me, and vice versa, so it's not really productive saying that "you should be able to do this with no trouble" when someone's having trouble with a certain concept.