"Apple is the next Microsoft"

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Jessica Lares

Use some common sense and it'll never be a problem.

I don't think that is true, or fair. Firstly, there is no common sense in this matter. Net-connected PCs are commodity appliances now, for real, and it takes education or experience to know what the risks are.
Secondly, the attack vectors have become very sneaky and convincing, and I cannot fault non-techies or newbies who just want to see their family's Facebook pages or play on-line poker or whatever from falling for some of them. And they do. I sometimes feel like sanitizing acquaintance's PCs is my second career.

Thirdly, while Symantec and McAfee are still, I think, bloated performance-killing hogs, there are other lighter, effective choices, that really do help prevent many of the comment threats.
Also, non-pc devices like Chromebooks are more secure options for a certain segment.

I think security is sort of like "Animal Farm's" equality. Maybe no system is really secure*, but some systems are certainly more secure than others.

ApK

*Kossowsky's Law of Network Security: "If there is a legal way in, then there is an illegal way in."

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by ApK

Secondly, the attack vectors have become very sneaky and convincing, and I cannot fault non-techies or newbies who just want to see their family's Facebook pages or play on-line poker or whatever from falling for some of them. And they do. I sometimes feel like sanitizing acquaintance's PCs is my second career.

And there's always the option of ridding yourself of Microsoft. I've been running Linux since 1992. I've *never* had a virus. And before you start ... Yes I understand that there are a lot of apps that only run under Microsoft (though Wine is getting better). Yes, I understand that Mom wants to play her favorite game. And so on and so on. Anything that requires the internet (which probably accounts for 90% of the typical home user) can be run on a Linux box that *can* be as simple to use as Windows. Dual-boot to Windows for non-internet related stuff.

I doubt if that will happen. Windows is too ingrained in peoples minds and the inertia to change is too great.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

And there's always the option of ridding yourself of Microsoft. I've been running Linux since 1992. I've *never* had a virus. And before you start ... Yes I understand that there are a lot of apps that only run under Microsoft (though Wine is getting better). Yes, I understand that Mom wants to play her favorite game. And so on and so on. Anything that requires the internet (which probably accounts for 90% of the typical home user) can be run on a Linux box that *can* be as simple to use as Windows. Dual-boot to Windows for non-internet related stuff.

I doubt if that will happen. Windows is too ingrained in peoples minds and the inertia to change is too great.

Macs too still seem to attract far less attention from malware developers. ChromeOS runs on Linux so there is a good example of how you can hide all complexity if you want. Perhaps the popularity of Chromebooks will encourage people to come up with competitive solutions. The people who will create the perfect GrannyOS will need to follow in the example
of ChromeOS and, say, Tivo (embedded Linux based system that works like a consumer appliance should).
Even with with these "more secure" platforms, people still need to be shown how to avoid phishing and other identity theft and fraud scams.

What were we supposed to be talking about again?

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

A I've been running Linux since 1992. I've *never* had a virus. And before you start ... Yes I understand that there are a lot of apps that only run under Microsoft (though Wine is getting better).

I've only been dual-booting to Linux since 2012, but I don't yet use it most of the time. Maybe I picked the wrong distribution (OpenSUSE), and maybe I'm still too much of a newbie to judge, but:

-- Linux updates are rarely, if ever, automatic, and much harder to install than those from Microsoft, including Windows 8 to Windows 8.1. Being told I have to make sure I have all the old OpenSUSE updates before putting on a new one is not user-friendly, and deters me from putting on any of them.

-- The application I use the most is Calibre. Yes, it runs fine on Linux, and updates come out at the same time as they do for Windows. But it is easy to install an old Calibre version on Linux (the one in your distribution), and harder to update there.

-- Years ago I may have had a Windows virus. But Windows 8 is secure enough, by default, that I don't think the risk is high. Those who go to shady web sites may find their mileage varying.

Getting back to the thread topic, as I've said before, Apple was a great hobbyist computer company before they came out with that newfangled Macintosh line. But even the Apple II line was overpriced.

Apple is one of the world's great companies and is is having an extraordinary run of successes, but, one of these days, the public will find that the price differential -- partly caused by Apple's enforcement of minimum retail prices -- isn't worth it.

[afv011]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

-- Linux updates are rarely, if ever, automatic, and much harder to install than those from Microsoft, including Windows 8 to Windows 8.1. Being told I have to make sure I have all the old OpenSUSE updates before putting on a new one is not user-friendly, and deters me from putting on any of them.

OpenSUSE uses, I believe, RPM packages. When I used SUSE back in the 90s, update packages were a nightmare, there were always unsolved dependencies and trying to fix them manually was an exercise in frustration.

I would suggest you look at a distribution using Debian packages (.deb), like Debian, Ubuntu, Mint and so on, updates are pain free.

[Jessica Lares]

Originally Posted by ApK

What were we supposed to be talking about again?

Apple's road to being the next Microsoft - As in being stagnant and a mess.

I don't think I've ever seen a thread that brings up Apple and another company being so negative on both sides and gets derailed. Too many people that have never touched a Mac have their opinions, and too many Mac users have theirs.

The whole industry is going down this road as a whole, the whole USA is going down this road even (but that topic is for PRSI).

Apple is still in the better position compared to the others. Because everyone who buys Macs, iPads, and iPhones makes them a lot of money when they buy the things, unlike Amazon and Google who make barely anything.

People also forget that the people who buy Apple products also spend the most on content, so that's an additional profit. It's a healthy ecosystem where the developers, publishers, studios, and labels are in charge and consumers aren't.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Jessica Lares

Since OS X Lion, Macs have had a built-in recovery partition that you can re-install the OS from. If you accidentally nuke it (like I did a few months ago), the ROM (do they still call it that?) has the ability to connect to the internet and re-download the installer so you don't have to go to the Apple Store to fix it.

You do have that option on most Windows PCs as well. How good the Factory Image is is another question, personally I'd go with imaging the computer once I first set it up the way I like regardless... I don't think the generic solution is ever the best way to go...

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

I've only been dual-booting to Linux since 2012, but I don't yet use it most of the time. Maybe I picked the wrong distribution (OpenSUSE), and maybe I'm still too much of a newbie to judge, but:

-- Linux updates are rarely, if ever, automatic, and much harder to install than those from Microsoft, including Windows 8 to Windows 8.1. Being told I have to make sure I have all the old OpenSUSE updates before putting on a new one is not user-friendly, and deters me from putting on any of them.

-- The application I use the most is Calibre. Yes, it runs fine on Linux, and updates come out at the same time as they do for Windows. But it is easy to install an old Calibre version on Linux (the one in your distribution), and harder to update there.

I don't know much about OpenSUSE, but I have to agree with afv011, that debian/ubuntu is pretty painless.

And you should not be installing calibre from the distro, for precisely that reason. Distros don't update most programs weekly, for a non-core component like calibre being updated weekly, you will probably never see a non-security update.

Install from Kovid's website, it is the recommended way. It is pretty painless, in fact it is simplicity itself, and I've never heard of anyone having to reinstall calibre on linux, the way Windows will sometimes corrupt the install.

You can also auto-update calibre if you use a cronjob.

[frahse]

Originally Posted by afv011

OpenSUSE uses, I believe, RPM packages. When I used SUSE back in the 90s, update packages were a nightmare, there were always unsolved dependencies and trying to fix them manually was an exercise in frustration.

I would suggest you look at a distribution using Debian packages (.deb), like Debian, Ubuntu, Mint and so on, updates are pain free.

How does Fedora rate?

[wizwor]

Originally Posted by ApK

Even with with these "more secure" platforms, people still need to be shown how to avoid phishing and other identity theft and fraud scams.

Less attacked <> More secure.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by wizwor

Less attacked <> More secure.

Yeah, in this sense, for all practical purposes, it is. Because if almost no one is out to get you, you're less likely to get got. If fewer people are looking for exploits, then they are less likely to be found.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by frahse

How does Fedora rate?

Ever heard the phrase "distro wars?" The more popular Linux flavors all have their pluses and minuses, fanboys and detractors.

Here's what the Fedora people say:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Compa..._distributions

If the above link is typical, Fedora folks are good honest technical enthusiasts with high user expectations.

Originally Posted by eschwartz

And you should not be installing calibre from the distro . . .

I know that. But with Windows and Mac, you don't have to know it.

Originally Posted by eschwartz

You can also auto-update calibre if you use a cronjob.

I look at the New/Improved News Sources list weekly, and only update if my needs dictate. Unnecessary updating would cost Kovid server fees.

Originally Posted by afv011

I would suggest you look at a distribution using Debian packages (.deb), like Debian, Ubuntu, Mint and so on, updates are pain free.

Depends on the definition of pain:

http://community.linuxmint.com/tutorial/view/1217

[Prestidigitweeze]

A related topic might be the relationship between the position of Apple stock and that of other U.S. companies, and how a decline in value will impact on the world and North American economies.

I use OSX, Windows 8, Ubuntu and Android (not Chrome quite yet) and can see why each would have its advocates and detractors. I can also see why some people might be angry over Apple's roach-motel-country-club ecosystem and pricing. The anger doesn't seem terribly different from that of other kinds of internet takedown -- which I view as fast-food activism that offers instant satisfaction to people who don't feel they have a say in larger socioeconomic issues -- but I can understand the frustration for the individual in terms of compatibility, system access and value.

What I don't know is the effect that a sharp decline in Apple's value would have on the market overall. The predicted decline of Apple might seem wonderful to people who don't like their products or business practices, but would it be a good thing in other respects?

[afv011]

Originally Posted by frahse

How does Fedora rate?

I personally have no experience with Fedora, but Fedora is a spin off of Red Hat, the original RPM (Red hat Package Manager) implementer, so it would have the same issues as openSUSE.

[hardcastle]

A lot of misinformation from users in this thread who should be doing their research rather than speculating.

RPM "dependency hell," as it's often called, has not been an issue for around a decade. Fedora and OpenSUSE use two different package managers (YUM and Zypper, respectively). Despite the fact that they both use RPM files, the two systems use them in entirely different ways, occasionally to the point of non-compatibility. The same goes for DEB files on Debian/Ubuntu, though the differences there are less extreme.

Switching to OSX or Linux after a lifetime of Windows is not a trivial task, and requires a willingness to do research. For less technical users, Mint or Ubuntu would be my first recommendation, but not for any major technical reason. Rather, it's because answers to users' questions would be easier to find on the internet. Fedora is a more technical, new-and-shiny distribution, not really geared for people who haven't learned the command line. OpenSUSE is a fine distro, though it's a bit obscure and oddly configured in a few details.

Computer security is a lot less obscure of a field than a lot of people seem to think. It basically boils to not installing unnecessary programs on your computer. Take all "Do I have permission?" questions very seriously. Carefully read installation dialogs and DON'T install optional toolbars or trial software. The magical computer break-ins do happen, but most users won't be in danger if they avoid installing unnecessary programs - this goes for all phones, computers, operating systems, etc.

Apple's biggest feather in their cap is the way that they stay unified on many fronts. Tech support is available and effective. They control the whole stack - the OS, the drivers, the upgrades, the app stores, advertising, everything. I believe a Windows PC maker could rival Apple if they invested in keeping Windows well configured on their machines, with plentiful and effective tech support to keep their users happy. OSX/iOS has few intrinsic advantages - it's more about what the company does with it to give the users a meaningful experience.

[afv011]

Originally Posted by hardcastle

A lot of misinformation from users in this thread who should be doing their research rather than speculating.

RPM "dependency hell," as it's often called, has not been an issue for around a decade. Fedora and OpenSUSE use two different package managers (YUM and Zypper, respectively). Despite the fact that they both use RPM files, the two systems use them in entirely different ways, occasionally to the point of non-compatibility. The same goes for DEB files on Debian/Ubuntu, though the differences there are less extreme.

Switching to OSX or Linux after a lifetime of Windows is not a trivial task, and requires a willingness to do research. For less technical users, Mint or Ubuntu would be my first recommendation, but not for any major technical reason. Rather, it's because answers to users' questions would be easier to find on the internet. Fedora is a more technical, new-and-shiny distribution, not really geared for people who haven't learned the command line. OpenSUSE is a fine distro, though it's a bit obscure and oddly configured in a few details.

Computer security is a lot less obscure of a field than a lot of people seem to think. It basically boils to not installing unnecessary programs on your computer. Take all "Do I have permission?" questions very seriously. Carefully read installation dialogs and DON'T install optional toolbars or trial software. The magical computer break-ins do happen, but most users won't be in danger if they avoid installing unnecessary programs - this goes for all phones, computers, operating systems, etc.

Apple's biggest feather in their cap is the way that they stay unified on many fronts. Tech support is available and effective. They control the whole stack - the OS, the drivers, the upgrades, the app stores, advertising, everything. I believe a Windows PC maker could rival Apple if they invested in keeping Windows well configured on their machines, with plentiful and effective tech support to keep their users happy. OSX/iOS has few intrinsic advantages - it's more about what the company does with it to give the users a meaningful experience.

The return of the distro wars! ...