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Old 02-12-2020, 01:43 PM   #16
Deskisamess
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I think the notes and bibliographies for No Ordinary Time made up 40% of the book.
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Old 02-12-2020, 02:23 PM   #17
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After creating epub3 ...

<p style="text-indent:0; line-height:2; margin-top:0; margin-right:0; margin-bottom:30; margin-left:0;">This is a test link;<a epub:type="noteref" href="#n11" style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14pt;">testing this/a></p>


and my popup footnote
<aside class="hidden" epub:type="footnote" id="n11">This is a popup note in kindle previewer 3.</aside>
What benefits are there from using the epub3 stuff; e.g., the epub:type? The fussy nerd in me wants to use that stuff but in practice I don't see any advantage, although I am making the container epub3 via the sigil setting for when starting a new book. And related to that, are you going to publish only on amazon, or also on Kobo and other places that use epub?
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Old 02-12-2020, 02:27 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Deskisamess View Post
I think the notes and bibliographies for No Ordinary Time made up 40% of the book.
I've never read that but you might also enjoy A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II by Gerhard L. Weinberg, in which about a third or so of its pages are the bibliography and footnotes.
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Old 02-12-2020, 05:00 PM   #19
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For non-fiction, decent Footnotes are important. Many of us read them.
A pox on all footnotes is what I say. Footnotes are nothing more than a parenthetical remark; so use parentheses for them! Put it where the footnote number is. Of course that doesn't work when the footnote is several sentences long; in that case put it in parentheses after the current sentence.

Last edited by hobnail; 02-12-2020 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 02-12-2020, 05:18 PM   #20
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All end-notes on their own page at the end of the book is the 'cleanest' (if you care about that) - the downside being the extra time the device/app takes to switch and load the other document, and then back. That won't be too bad as long as the end-notes page isn't too long.
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Old 02-12-2020, 05:24 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Barbara1955 View Post
epub is NOT an Amazon format.
However uploading epub2 to Amazon actually works best.

I use a Kobo (current FW, so model nearly irrelevant), Sony PRS350, Nook Simple Touch, a Binatone Readme, and PocketReader App on Android phone (for size) and Android Tablet.

Then I compare Amazon preview download on DXG, Kindle Keyboard and PW3 and compare those with Dual Mobi and AZW3 created by Calibre.
The SAME epub2 is uploaded to Google, Amazon and Smashwords.
A dual Mobi from Calibre is uploaded to Smashwords for Kindle.

I edit in ODT, export DOCX for Calibre (and thence to epub2), export DOC to Smashwords for their LRF conversion.

Generally if the epub2 (not auto Kepub!) is OK on the Kobo, then the resulting Amazon versions from the epub2 we supply them are fine. They supply either old Mobi, KF8-AZW3 or KFX depending on what Kindle a customer has and if they use Whispernet 3G or via WiFi (please don't!) or Download to PC for USB transfer (to selected Kindle).

The Kindle Keyboard FW by default does "dumb" mobi from the dual mobi like the DXG does, but unlike it, it has a Publisher Font option for the KF8 part of dual Mobi and will also display AZW3 (The DXG will not display AZW3).

There is also a Fixed Print Duplicate Layout so called "Kindle", which actually doesn't seem to work on eInk. I think you need Fire or a Kindle App.

So there is no SINGLE ereader to test Amazon OUTPUT (you'd want maybe three devices and an App). However almost always, if you upload epub2 to Amazon, then a Kobo Touch or later with current Kobo firmware will do to test, as long as epub2 and not autoconverted to kepub by the default driver settings in Calibre.

Use a decent epub app (not Kindle viewer or Kobo) free from Playstore on a 5" to 6" Android phone as the majority of eBooks are read on a phone. Tables, too big headings, too much indented lists and images are the issues.
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Old 02-12-2020, 05:33 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by hobnail View Post
A pox on all footnotes is what I say. Footnotes are nothing more than a parenthetical remark; so use parentheses for them! Put it where the footnote number is. Of course that doesn't work when the footnote is several sentences long; in that case put it in parentheses after the current sentence.
Yes, especially for fiction, a right justified comment after the paragraph is best. Do make your browser window be only about 1/4 width screen if on a laptop to see the demo.
[This is an example inline note]
We are not all Douglas Adams or Terry Pratchett. Pterry pretty much dropped them on later books.
If it's non-fiction it may need footnotes longer than a line and then it's end notes, make sure each has a back link and thus replicate the note if used more than once as many ereaders are rubbish at "back" or footnotes. Test them on a physical ereader, not an app or PC viewer!
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Old 02-12-2020, 05:37 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobnail View Post
What benefits are there from using the epub3 stuff; e.g., the epub:type? The fussy nerd in me wants to use that stuff but in practice I don't see any advantage, although I am making the container epub3 via the sigil setting for when starting a new book. And related to that, are you going to publish only on amazon, or also on Kobo and other places that use epub?
Amazon strongly recommends it now. Strongly=their wording, not mine.

Quote:
Amazon strongly recommends marking footnotes with the HTML5 aside element, together with the epub:type attribute. This allows accessible reading systems to ignore the footnotes except when followed by their referents and allows any reading system to handle them more intelligently (e.g., as pop-ups). This usage ensures that even if the EPUB semantic is not recognized, the notes will still be treated as secondary content due the nature of the HTML5 aside element.
And so on and so forth, p. 32 on the most recent guidelines.

FWIW.

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Old 02-12-2020, 05:43 PM   #24
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Amazon strongly recommends it now. Strongly=their wording, not mine.

And so on and so forth, p. 32 on the most recent guidelines.

FWIW.

Hitch
Thanks, I forgot about accessibility. Seems to me that that strengthens my argument for replacing those poxy footnotes with parentheses.
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Old 02-12-2020, 05:43 PM   #25
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Footnotes are annoying on paper and seriously bad news in ebooks. Especially fiction as it breaks the flow.

Really only academic papers need them, as citations to the hundreds of endnotes. Often those are unsuitable as real ebooks and get produced as Fixed Layout or PDF. I'd rather have a real PDF than a Fixed Layout masquerading as an eBook.
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Old 02-12-2020, 06:39 PM   #26
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Really only academic papers need them, as citations to the hundreds of endnotes.
Wow, that's quite a claim. How are they bad in ebooks? When properly formatted, they are fine, and work well. Tap the little number, the footnote opens, you read it, or make a note of it, tap the X, and continue reading.

When reading non-fiction, like the book I named in my earlier post, footnotes can add a lot of information for the reader who is trying to learn something.

I've no experience with "academic papers" as I only went to school thru High School, but I do enjoy well written, well researched non-fiction on a number of subjects. I can't imagine getting as much out of some of the books I've read if they lacked footnotes. Sometimes they simply offer clarity, sometimes they offer a new source of info to pursue, etc.
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Old 02-12-2020, 07:07 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Turtle91 View Post
All end-notes on their own page at the end of the book is the 'cleanest' (if you care about that) - the downside being the extra time the device/app takes to switch and load the other document, and then back. That won't be too bad as long as the end-notes page isn't too long.
- to address the downside: If a book has a lot of worthwhile endnotes I split them off into a separate epub so that I can refer to them on my phone while reading on my tablet/ereader. I loathe popups; and if a group of notes reflect alternatives, I want to read them as group. I've also been known to photocopy the endnotes in p-books for similar reasons.

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Old 02-12-2020, 07:15 PM   #28
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Wow, that's quite a claim. How are they bad in ebooks? When properly formatted, they are fine, and work well. Tap the little number, the footnote opens, you read it, or make a note of it, tap the X, and continue reading.

When reading non-fiction, like the book I named in my earlier post, footnotes can add a lot of information for the reader who is trying to learn something.

I've no experience with "academic papers" as I only went to school thru High School, but I do enjoy well written, well researched non-fiction on a number of subjects. I can't imagine getting as much out of some of the books I've read if they lacked footnotes. Sometimes they simply offer clarity, sometimes they offer a new source of info to pursue, etc.
My arguments against them is that that tapping breaks the flow of concentration. If their words are there in parentheses then you just keep reading. Similar to having to jump down to the bottom of the page to read them in a printed book, then afterwards find your place up above. If you're formatting an ebook there's way too much boilerplate; the link to the footnote, then in the footnote a link back to the original place, making sure the numbers match, and all the crud that goes around those. And if the author decides to add a new footnote before any others, those following have to be renumbered.
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Old 02-12-2020, 07:31 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by hobnail View Post
My arguments against them is that that tapping breaks the flow of concentration.
Well, so far, my concentration isn't quite that bad. Thank heavens.

Quote:
If their words are there in parentheses then you just keep reading. Similar to having to jump down to the bottom of the page to read them in a printed book, then afterwards find your place up above.
IDK, footnotes and endnotes have never fazed me. They're part of research and intensive reading.

Quote:
If you're formatting an ebook there's way too much boilerplate; the link to the footnote, then in the footnote a link back to the original place, making sure the numbers match, and all the crud that goes around those. And if the author decides to add a new footnote before any others, those following have to be renumbered.
Yeah--that's the job. It happens all the time, unfortunately.

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Old 02-12-2020, 08:42 PM   #30
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For non-fiction, decent Footnotes are important. Many of us read them.
Sometimes they are important for fiction too!

Case in point, the 1950s book The Decline and Fall of Practically Everybody by Will Cuppy (I have my grandmother's copy.)

This is basically a humorous take on history complete with fun illustrations. And virtually every page has several footnotes. Which add to the humor!

For instance, in his first chapter about ancient Egypt titled: Cheops, or Khufu, he writes:

Quote:
Some of the Egyptians were brighter than others. They invented mosquito netting, astrology and a calendar that wouldn't work, so that New Year's Day finally fell on the Fourth of July. They believed that the sun went sailing around Egypt all day on a boat and that a pig ate the moon every two weeks. [5]
With the note being:

Quote:
5. This was called the wisdom of the ancients.
It's not available as ebook AFAIK, but should it be released at some future time, one would certainly HOPE that the footnotes remained intact in some fashion!

Last edited by graycyn; 02-12-2020 at 08:53 PM.
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