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Old 12-30-2011, 09:21 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by dmcounts View Post
My K3 3G/WIFI did not come with the Special Offers but Amazon is offering me the option of getting them for free.

For those who do have the special offers how is blocking them any different than blocking the popups on webpages with a popup blocker?

Both are designed as a revenue enhancer.

When Amazon offered the popups...sorry, the "Special Offers" for free it changed my mind on the question of removing them if a person wished.


don
I'll make this simple like I did in the other thread.

The Special Offers do not pop up. Full-screen ads only appear when the Kindle is 'off' replacing the older screen savers. The smaller version is a very small banner at the bottom of the home screen. Note what I said there, the bottom of the home screen.

The Special Offers do not show up while you're reading, and do NOT require effort to dismiss. I mean when your Kindle is 'off' you always have to turn it back on right? Well when you turn the Kindle back on the SO gets dismissed without any additional effort. They will only reappear again when you turn it back 'off' or when you're on the home screen.


So let me ask you this. Let's say you own a business selling cars, and you offer a customer a vehicle for 30% off IF they use a standard size license plate frame that has the name of your dealership on it. Let us then say the customer immediately after buying the car decides to take it home and remove that license plate frame.

You sold them that car under contract stating that they would receive the discount in exchange for leaving that license plate frame intact. They broke the contract. Do you want that type of customer buying your product?
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Old 12-31-2011, 12:15 AM   #32
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Many websites only source of revenue is from the popup ads they have.

When one uses the website with a popup blocker enabled for their browser they are taking the product without paying the price, in that case looking at the ad.

Are we all who utilize a popup blocker thieves worthy of scorn?

Ads are ads whether on a television program, a website, a side of a bus, or the home page of a Kindle.

If the ads are truly special offers that save the viewer money then Amazon should not need to force KSO owners to view them.

By offering non KSO owners the special offers without any money changing hands it appears Amazon considers the special offers a value in and of itself.

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Old 12-31-2011, 03:19 AM   #33
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Amazon don't "force" anyone to look at special offers. They give you the choice of doing so, in return for which they knock between $30 and $50 off the price of the product. If you voluntarily choose to accept that offer, you're entering into a contract with Amazon. There is an obligation on you to stick within the terms of that contract.
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Old 12-31-2011, 03:43 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by dmcounts View Post
Many websites only source of revenue is from the popup ads they have.

When one uses the website with a popup blocker enabled for their browser they are taking the product without paying the price, in that case looking at the ad.

Are we all who utilize a popup blocker thieves worthy of scorn?

Ads are ads whether on a television program, a website, a side of a bus, or the home page of a Kindle.

If the ads are truly special offers that save the viewer money then Amazon should not need to force KSO owners to view them.

By offering non KSO owners the special offers without any money changing hands it appears Amazon considers the special offers a value in and of itself.

don
As HarryT and I have already stated.

User CHOOSE to buy the KSO at the reduced price. They enter into a contract.

If you want to justify theft then feel free to do so, and yes anyone who is condoning theft is worthy of my scorn.
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:56 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Morpheus Phreak View Post
As HarryT and I have already stated.

User CHOOSE to buy the KSO at the reduced price. They enter into a contract.

If you want to justify theft then feel free to do so, and yes anyone who is condoning theft is worthy of my scorn.

I chose to purchase a Kindle 3 3G/WIFI to read ebooks purchased from Amazon and entered into a contract.

I also chose to sideload ebooks purchased from other sources onto my Kindle thereby effectively depriving Amazon the profits from the sales of those ebooks.

I understand your scorn for my "theft" of service from Amazon and I am certain you have no ebooks on your device that was not purchased from Amazon.

Not reading an ad is a pretty minor infraction when compared to using Amazon's device to read product from Amazon's competition wouldn't you say?

We need to keep our scorn in perspective here and perhaps stop with the name calling.


don

Last edited by dmcounts; 12-31-2011 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:00 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by dmcounts View Post
I chose to purchase a Kindle 3 3G/WIFI to read ebooks purchased from Amazon and entered into a contract.

I also chose to sideload ebooks purchased from other sources onto my Kindle thereby effectively stealing from Amazon the sales of those ebooks.
With the very greatest respect, Don, that's not a valid comparison.

Using a Kindle to read non-Amazon books is a perfectly legitimate use of the device.

Removing the ads from an ad-supported Kindle by means other than those which Amazon condone is a clear breach of the Kindle's Terms of Service.

The two are not remotely comparable.
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:46 AM   #37
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With the very greatest respect, Don, that's not a valid comparison.

Using a Kindle to read non-Amazon books is a perfectly legitimate use of the device.

Removing the ads from an ad-supported Kindle by means other than those which Amazon condone is a clear breach of the Kindle's Terms of Service.

The two are not remotely comparable.

Perhaps you could point me to the portion of the License Agreement and Terms of Use that specifies the Kindle can be used for the reading of digital content not obtained through the Kindle Store.

What I see is:
Quote:
For the purposes of this Agreement:

"Content Provider" means the party offering Digital Content in the Kindle Store, which may be us or a third party; however, for Digital Content designated as active content in the Kindle Store, "Content Provider" means the publisher of the Digital Content.

"Digital Content" means digitized electronic content obtained through the Kindle Store, such as books, newspapers, magazines, journals, blogs, RSS feeds, games, and other static and interactive electronic content.

"Kindle" means our portable electronic reading device.

"Kindle Store" means our stores on Kindle, on Reading Applications and on our website, the homepage of which is located at www.amazon.com/kindlestore.
Amazon is a company that has control of their devices and when they decide to stop the Kindle from using digital content from other providers than the Kindle Store they will do so.

At the same time Amazon did provide the Special Offers at a discount to attract users to their new advertising concept and when they offered it to non KSO owners they signaled the intent to attempt to make it a value added service.

It is just as much a violation of the Terms if Use Agreement to modify the software to bypass the Special Offers as it is to change the font or modify the screensavers or to use the Kindle to read digital content secured from sources other than the Kindle Store.

All these can and will be restricted by Amazon when and if they decide that it is their best interests to do so.

Amazon can make those decisions and I will continue to not cast aspersions toward others who choose to use their Kindles in whatever manner they wish.

I see it as a matter between Amazon and them and I choose to not judge.


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Old 12-31-2011, 07:53 AM   #38
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Perhaps you could point me to the portion of the License Agreement and Terms of Use that specifies the Kindle can be used for the reading of digital content not obtained through the Kindle Store.
It is outside the scope of the licence agreement. However, Amazon specifically provide facilities for adding your own content to the Kindle - heck, they even archive such content for you on their servers. There is absolutely no question of the legitimacy of reading non-Amazon content on a Kindle.

It's a complete red herring to equate the entirely legitimate use of the Kindle for reading non-Amazon-sourced content with the wholly illegitimate act of removing the ads, and I think, if you're honest with yourself, Don, that you realise that as well as I do. You can make all the excuses you want, but Amazon provide a perfectly legitimate method of removing the ads if you wish to do so, and you have voluntarily entered into a contract to access them. Nobody forced you to do so.

Do the right thing and stick to your side of the contract, please.
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:59 AM   #39
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It is outside the scope of the licence agreement. However, Amazon specifically provide facilities for adding your own content to the Kindle - heck, they even archive such content for you on their servers. There is absolutely no question of the legitimacy of reading non-Amazon content on a Kindle.

It's a complete red herring to equate the entirely legitimate use of the Kindle for reading non-Amazon-sourced content with the wholly illegitimate act of removing the ads, and I think, if you're honest with yourself, Don, that you realise that as well as I do. You can make all the excuses you want, but Amazon provide a perfectly legitimate method of removing the ads if you wish to do so, and you have voluntarily entered into a contract to access them. Nobody forced you to do so.

Do the right thing and stick to your side of the contract, please.
"Outside the scope of the license agreement" Uhhh, sure, whatever you say.......

No HarryT, I have not entered into any agreement with Amazon to access the Special Offers.

I own a Kindle3 3G/WIFI and a Kindle 2 and members of my immediate family all own Kindle3 WIFIs that were all before their special offers.

I'm just getting a bit tired of all the holier than thou attitudes about the KSO owners being exhibited from some of you folks.


don

Last edited by dmcounts; 12-31-2011 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 12-31-2011, 08:04 AM   #40
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I'm just getting a bit tired of all the holier than thou attitudes about the KSO owners being exhibited from some of you folks.
You believe that it's a "holier than thou" attitude to consider it to be wrong to break a contract that you've voluntarily entered into? That's a very strange thing to say. Contracts are there to define rights and responsibilities on both sides. When you enter into a contract with someone, do you not expect them to do what they've agreed to do?
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Old 12-31-2011, 08:10 AM   #41
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You believe that it's a "holier than thou" attitude to consider it to be wrong to break a contract that you've voluntarily entered into? That's a very strange thing to say. Contracts are there to define rights and responsibilities on both sides. When you enter into a contract with someone, do you not expect them to do what they've agreed to do?

I would expect the parties that entered into those contracts to police themselves without interference from outsiders such as yourself casting aspersions on those so engaged.

It is a matter between Amazon and those who are using it and not between you and them.



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Old 12-31-2011, 08:17 AM   #42
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I would expect the parties that entered into those contracts to police themselves without interference from outsiders such as yourself casting aspersions on those so engaged.
No. As a site moderator I am perfectly entitled to say that it is MobileRead's official policy to very strongly discourage this practice, and that's a point of view that the whole moderating team (and the site owner) share.

If you'd prefer to have it official:

Moderator Notice
MobileRead very strongly discourages anyone from removing ads from their "Kindle with Special Offers" by any means other than those provided by Amazon.


... and we will say so whenever the situation arises in which it's appropriate to do so.
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Old 12-31-2011, 08:23 AM   #43
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No. As a site moderator I am perfectly entitled to say that it is MobileRead's official policy to very strongly discourage this practice, and that's a point of view that the whole moderating team (and the site owner) share.

If you'd prefer to have it official:


MobileRead very strongly discourages anyone from removing ads from their "Kindle with Special Offers" by any means other than those provided by Amazon.


... and we will say so whenever the situation arises in which it's appropriate to do so.

I see.

Well, carry on Mr Moderator, we all really need your judgement on what is moral here.


don
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Old 12-31-2011, 08:31 AM   #44
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Perhaps you could point me to the portion of the License Agreement and Terms of Use that specifies the Kindle can be used for the reading of digital content not obtained through the Kindle Store.
So you honestly think Amazon is breaking their own ToS by offering the free conversion service to get your personal documents on your Kindle? And what would be the point of explaining how to transfer personal documents to your Kindle via the USB cable if you were only allowed to read things purchased from the Kindle store?

Case in point: the Kindle supports pdf documents, yet Amazon doesn't currently even SELL pdfs (print replica doesn't count).

And in my 5th edition of the Kindle Handbook:
Quote:
In addition to purchased content, you can read your personal documents on Kindle.

Amazon.com (2010-01-18). Kindle User's Guide, 5th Ed (Kindle Locations 529-530). Amazon.com. Kindle Edition.
So let's put to bed this silliness that using the Kindle to read non-Amazon content is somehow violating the Terms of Service. That dog won't hunt.

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Old 12-31-2011, 12:12 PM   #45
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So you honestly think Amazon is breaking their own ToS by offering the free conversion service to get your personal documents on your Kindle? And what would be the point of explaining how to transfer personal documents to your Kindle via the USB cable if you were only allowed to read things purchased from the Kindle store?

Case in point: the Kindle supports pdf documents, yet Amazon doesn't currently even SELL pdfs (print replica doesn't count).

And in my 5th edition of the Kindle Handbook:


So let's put to bed this silliness that using the Kindle to read non-Amazon content is somehow violating the Terms of Service. That dog won't hunt.
I wasn't referring to personal documents but to the ebooks you have purchased elsewhere and sideloaded to your Kindle.

But it is OK, whatever lets you sleep at night knowing you are stealing and violating the spirit and indeed the letter of the ToS.

We can all go back to focusing on those who are relegated to the "Cheap Seats" by their purchase of a KSO and continue to cast aspersions on their character if they so much as ask a question.



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