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Old 02-25-2018, 06:57 PM   #61
Katsunami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
DRM and profitability of publishing have no connection. Case in point: Tor dropped all DRM some years ago and it had no impact on their sales.

Since having DRM or not makes no difference to publishers' sales, customers removing DRM makes no difference either.
If the inclusion or absence of DRM has no impact on publisher's sales, it automatically means that customers don't care if their books are controlled by a third party.

I don't know what to think about this...

1. Is it ignorance, and would they care if they knew?
2. Is it stupidity and don't they understand, even if they know?
3. Is it neither, and they just *really* don't care?

If there hadn't been an "easy-ish" way of removing DRM, I wouldn't be e-reading. The one thing I dislike about digital books and music is that it requires A LOT more forethought and work to keep it usable in the future:

Physical book:
1. Buy it.
2. Read it.
3. Put on shelf on the correct spot (however you arrange them).

If your house doesn't burn down, this book will be usable as long as it doesn't fall apart.

Digital book:
1. Buy it.
2. Download the ASCM (in case of an EPUB)
3. Put it into ADE.
4. Pull the book into calibre to have Alf's plugins remove the DRM
5. Fix the metadata
6. Put in a cover (as they often don't have one)
7. Use the editor to have all problems fixed
8. Put it onto your e-reader

If you don't un-DRM and don't care about errors in the book, you can skip steps 4-7, or even just buy the book from the device itself. In that case however, usage of the book in the somewhat distant future is uncertain.

Many people don't (seem to) care, but I do.

You can't imagine how much time I've put into my e-book and music libraries to future-proof them as much as possible, and to remove all inconcistencies so I can easily convert them to newer formats if I ever need to. E-books and music together at least took me about half a decade. With a physical library, it'd take me half a day to arrange it in a sensible way.
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:18 PM   #62
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@Katsunami. I think you mostly answer your own question when you wrote "If there hadn't been an "easy-ish" way of removing DRM, I wouldn't be e-reading." At the moment you are buying ebooks with DRM because that DRM can be removed, and quite easily. So for you, and I suggest also for the vast majority who do care about drm, whether a book has drm or not is irrelevant. In fact, if you are using Calibre and Alf the workflow is the same.

Sadly, and I hope we never find out, if effective DRM was implemented then, as has been discussed elsewhere, it is likely the vast majority simply do not care. Those who do care at all seem to be only a tiny proportion.
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:21 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsunami View Post
If the inclusion or absence of DRM has no impact on publisher's sales, it automatically means that customers don't care if their books are controlled by a third party.

I don't know what to think about this...

1. Is it ignorance, and would they care if they knew?
2. Is it stupidity and don't they understand, even if they know?
3. Is it neither, and they just *really* don't care?

If there hadn't been an "easy-ish" way of removing DRM, I wouldn't be e-reading. The one thing I dislike about digital books and music is that it requires A LOT more forethought and work to keep it usable in the future:

Physical book:
1. Buy it.
2. Read it.
3. Put on shelf on the correct spot (however you arrange them).

If your house doesn't burn down, this book will be usable as long as it doesn't fall apart.

Digital book:
1. Buy it.
2. Download the ASCM (in case of an EPUB)
3. Put it into ADE.
4. Pull the book into calibre to have Alf's plugins remove the DRM
5. Fix the metadata
6. Put in a cover (as they often don't have one)
7. Use the editor to have all problems fixed
8. Put it onto your e-reader

If you don't un-DRM and don't care about errors in the book, you can skip steps 4-7, or even just buy the book from the device itself. In that case however, usage of the book in the somewhat distant future is uncertain.

Many people don't (seem to) care, but I do.

You can't imagine how much time I've put into my e-book and music libraries to future-proof them as much as possible, and to remove all inconcistencies so I can easily convert them to newer formats if I ever need to. E-books and music together at least took me about half a decade. With a physical library, it'd take me half a day to arrange it in a sensible way.
I'm with you, but I suspect it's mostly 3. (they really don't care) nowadays for the majority, sometimes perhaps 1. Most people don't seem to reread, and most people don't have libraries consisting of thousands of e-books. I've read opinions on Amazon forums that even if they somehow lost their books, it would be no particular problem to buy them again (those few they would want to keep). We with our huge libraries which we painstakingly back up and keep in order are in a very tiny minority, imho.
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:26 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsunami View Post
Digital book:
1. Buy it.
2. Download the ASCM (in case of an EPUB)
3. Put it into ADE.
4. Pull the book into calibre to have Alf's plugins remove the DRM
5. Fix the metadata
6. Put in a cover (as they often don't have one)
7. Use the editor to have all problems fixed
8. Put it onto your e-reader

If you don't un-DRM and don't care about errors in the book, you can skip steps 4-7, or even just buy the book from the device itself. In that case however, usage of the book in the somewhat distant future is uncertain.

Many people don't (seem to) care, but I do.
I care, but not that much any more. Everyone is collecting data on me anyhow. My main reason for DeDRMing is to change the font and margins for my Sony Readers. My steps are a little easier.

1. Buy book on Amazon (usually)
2. Download to Kindle
3. Read into Calibre (with DeDRM installed)
4. Convert to ePub
5. Move to selected eReader

So far I haven't had to correct any metadata and covers come in fine with the conversion process.

One novel had spaces between every paragraph – so 10 lines of conversation took up a whole page. Irritating. Easy to fix in the conversion process using Calibre.
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:35 PM   #65
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I've never quite understood the buy-it-once-and-keep-it-forever mindset when it cones to books. Even back when I used to re-read a lot more than I do now, I didn't mind buying new copies of favorite books. I wore many of them out; lost others; loaned them out and never got them back; bought extra copies to give as gifts; bought the movie tie-in editions--what-have-you.

I feel the same way about ebooks. If, in five or six (or ten) years, an ebook I want to re-read is unavailable (lost, DRM-stranded because a book store went bust--whatever), I won't mind giving a little more money to an author I like to replace it (or I'll get it from a library).

The only reason I remove DRM these days is if the formatting is so atrocious that I need to fix it to read it comfortably (rare).

I value the experience of reading a great book way more than what they're charging for new ones (e or p). *shrug*
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:51 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
I've never quite understood the buy-it-once-and-keep-it-forever mindset when it cones to books. Even back when I used to re-read a lot more than I do now, I didn't mind buying new copies of favorite books. I wore many of them out; lost others; loaned them out and never got them back; bought extra copies to give as gifts; bought the movie tie-in editions--what-have-you.

I feel the same way about ebooks. If, in five or six (or ten) years, an ebook I want to re-read is unavailable (lost, DRM-stranded because a book store went bust--whatever), I won't mind giving a little more money to an author I like to replace it (or I'll get it from a library).

The only reason I remove DRM these days is if the formatting is so atrocious that I need to fix it to read it comfortably (rare).

I value the experience of reading a great book way more than what they're charging for new ones (e or p). *shrug*
Well, there are many reasons. Some people are just hoarders by nature (I'm certainly one of these). Not all people have enough disposable income to buy their favorite books or movies several times over (I've had some pretty hard times in my life too). Last but not least, I personally live in a small country where the majority of digital goods were not legally available until quite recently, and it's far from impossible such a situation might occur again in the future, e.g. I might not be able to buy any e-books at all someday. That's something people in the big Western countries, especially the U.S., probably never have to fear.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:03 PM   #67
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That's something people in the big Western countries, especially the U.S., probably never have to fear.
You're right that I don't really fear that. But probably not for the reason you might think. I prefer reading ebooks. But above all else, I prefer reading. So in the unlikely event that ebooks ever became unavailable, I'd revert to buying/borrowing physical (or audio if necessary) books. They worked quite well for me the first thirty-five or so years of my life. In the long run, I'm all about the message, not the envelope it arrives in. I'd miss the convenience of ebooks, obviously, but not enough to stop reading and/or buying (or borrowing) books.

Last edited by DiapDealer; 02-25-2018 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:14 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
You're probably right. But not for the reason you might think. I prefer reading ebooks. But above all else, I prefer reading. So in the unlikely event that ebooks ever became unavailable, I'd revert to buying/borrowing physical (or audio if necessary) books. They worked quite well for me the first thirty-five or so years of my life. In the long run, I'm all about the message, not the envelope it arrives in.
Of course, but the same reasoning applies there. Only a few of my favorite books are available locally (even in paper) and I might not able to buy them from elsewhere in the future (for example, you could not order anything from foreign countries during the Soviet times - iron curtain and all that). Even if buying foreign paper books is still possible in the future, it would be pretty expensive, what with the shipping costs and all. I might not have enough money to do it.

Of course this is an utterly pessimistic view and such a situation probably will never come to pass, but it has happened in the past, so I like to be prepared. What can I say, I'm a pessimist and a hoarder.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:15 PM   #69
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Hey, we all do what we need to do to get by.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:36 PM   #70
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And some of us are on limited incomes due to disabilities (in my case blood sugar troubles due to diabetes) and so can't afford to re-buy books by the ton if something happens. For anyone on such a limited income buying new copies of ebooks or a new ereader/ computer/ tablet etc. is a big investment. I still remember when I bought my 1st K3. It cost around $130-150 at the time and it was my big purchase for the month. Amazon didn't have their pay a bit per month option at the time. I had had to save back some $ to afford it at that time. The price of dedicated ereaders has gone down quite a bit the last few yrs and I wager companies like Amazon have sold quite a good # of ereaders (though they don't release figures). Of course some people buy new every year just like some people trade in their cars for a new model on a regular basis, but some of us can't afford to and so not as many new ones are sold in the following year. And some companies keep the price of their ebook versions high so that you have to want/need a given book enough that you are willing to shell out the $9.99 (or whatever the price is) to get a copy. I usually buy the $2.99 books (and the free ones) and only spend more on a very few. I mean two books at $9.99 for example would be over $20.00 with tax included, but two at $2.99 would be just over $6.00 with tax. Purchases add up though too.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:55 PM   #71
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It's not really about money. I would never need to replace my entire library if it became unavailable. Because my library is comprised almost entirely of books I've already read. I don't pre-buy books. My To-Read stack is entirely virtual--I don't own them yet.

I'd only ever have to rebuy an ebook if I ever wanted to re-read it (one at a time at the time I decided to re-read them). The rest of the time I'd be doing what I always do: picking new books to read.

The vast majority I'm never going to re-read, so why would I care about losing access to them? Besides ... by the time enough time passes for me to consider re-reading a book, it will be much cheaper, or free from the library anyway.

In essence, the only book that exists for me is the one I'm reading now. And unless it blows my mind, it will--in essence--cease to exist when I finish it.

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Old 02-25-2018, 09:05 PM   #72
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It's not really about money. I would never need to replace my entire library if it became unavailable. Because my library is comprised almost entirely of books I've already read. I don't pre-buy books. My To-Read stack is entirely virtual--I don't own them yet.

I'd only ever have to rebuy an ebook if I ever wanted to re-read it (one at a time at the time I decided to re-read them). The rest of the time I'd be doing what I always do: picking new books to read.

The vast majority I'm never going to re-read, so why would I care about losing access to them? Besides ... by the time enough time passes for me to consider re-reading a book, it will be much cheaper, or free from the library anyway.

In essence, the only book that exists for me is the one I'm reading now. And unless it blows my mind, it will--in essence--cease to exist when I finish it.
Different views from different people. I like having access to my library and not having to wait for a given book to be available again because another patron has it checked out. And going to the library also takes both time and $ as well.
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:17 PM   #73
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Different views from different people. I like having access to my library and not having to wait for a given book to be available again because another patron has it checked out. And going to the library also takes both time and $ as well.
Go to the library? Why on earth would I do that while ebooks are still available?
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Old 02-25-2018, 10:28 PM   #74
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Of course this is an utterly pessimistic view and such a situation probably will never come to pass, but it has happened in the past, so I like to be prepared. What can I say, I'm a pessimist and a hoarder.
I disagree. I would say realistic based on past experience.

However there might be some pessimism mixed in. But that is no bad thing as at least you will be prepared for the worst and delighted if it does not occur.

As for being a hoarder, so am I. I have more books than I can read before I "pop my clogs" (die).
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Old 02-25-2018, 10:52 PM   #75
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Go to the library? Why on earth would I do that while ebooks are still available?
You mentioned books being 'free from the library.' I had forgotten that my library has got ebooks. Some probably still don't though.
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