Bezos Interview: why Amazon started with books

[Phogg]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I can't read the article because it doesn't like ad blockers and I'm not about to shutdown my ad blocker.

Puff pieces about big name CEO's is a staple of these type of magazines. I've read such pieces about Steve Jobs and Bill Gates as well. Neither were exactly well known as people you particularly wanted to work for.

Or even have tangential business relationships with.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I get a kick out of people trying to exclude "already successful authors" from discussions about self-publishing (or better yet, excluding the self-pubbers that went on to get tradpub deals). It's probably because it doesn't slot in nicely with their preconceived notion that all self-published stuff is garbage. Reminds me of mainstream literature cherry-picking all the bright and shiny stuff from the ranks of genre fiction and then poo-pooing genre fiction as garbage.

"When I say 'self-published stuff is all garbage', I don't mean the good self-published stuff, I'm only talking about the garbage self-published stuff being garbage."

Of course, the whole "self-published stuff is all garbage" meme is purely a strawman argument. I haven't seen anyone say that self-published stuff is all garbage on this thread. What I've seen is people say that a lot of self published stuff is garbage and I don't want to filter through it, a very different point.

There are a lot of successful authors who self publish some of their books. Larry Correa has a number of books that are self published, mostly books that don't really fit in well with his other stories. I'm very fond of his Malcontents series, not strictly self published, but he does use a rather obscure publisher.

A lot of authors use self publishing for their backlist books. It seems to me that self publishing to make backlist books available is one place where self publishing really shines. I just wish there was a better way to be notified when that happens.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Of course, the whole "self-published stuff is all garbage" meme is purely a strawman argument. I haven't seen anyone say that self-published stuff is all garbage on this thread. What I've seen is people say that a lot of self published stuff is garbage and I don't want to filter through it, a very different point.

Quite right. No one, on either side of the discussion, has seriously argued on this thread that "self-published stuff is all garbage". Not even DiapDealer, who used it to illustrate a different point.

It seems to be common ground that without a gatekeeper there are a lot of self-published books which most of us would classify as garbage. Just what percentage, who knows. IMHO it is also true to say that there are a lot of self-published books which are not garbage. However, some clearly disagree with me on this, taking the view that there are only a small percentage of self-published books which are not garbage. DiapDealer clearly finds it amusing that some who take this view seek to justify it by excluding certain categories of self-published books. In the end it doesn't matter that greatly. Clearly even those who take the most extreme view acknowledge that there are self-published books worth reading.

Some posts say or sometimes imply, intentionally or otherwise, that it is a terribly onerous and time consuming task to find good Indie/Self-Published books. So much so that they prefer to stick to established traditional publishers. My personal experience is that finding good self-published books is neither terribly onerous nor terribly time-consuming. If your experience is different, I have no problem with it. Though I do believe you are missing out needlessly.

In replying to Mivo earlier I said I agreed with DiapDealer's #19, and therefore did not seek to repeat the points made in that post. But I find this paragraph particularly apt:

The "hoops" you speak of quite are huge. You don't even have to jump though them. You merely have to pay attention and look where you're walking while you stroll through them. Much like readers have always done. No one has ever, in the history of book-reading, been able to choose books at utter random and have a high degree of confidence that they would be satisfied with those random picks. There has always been self-vetting and personal research needing to be done in order to find satisfactory books to read. They never did fall out of the sky from traditional publishers into the laps of readers to be loved.

And this:

Nobody ever said; "Man, that book sucked. But I'm glad I read it because it was so, so, very competently edited."

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by darryl

Quite right. No one, on either side of the discussion, has seriously argued on this thread that "self-published stuff is all garbage". Not even DiapDealer, who used it to illustrate a different point.

It seems to be common ground that without a gatekeeper there are a lot of self-published books which most of us would classify as garbage. Just what percentage, who knows. IMHO it is also true to say that there are a lot of self-published books which are not garbage. However, some clearly disagree with me on this, taking the view that there are only a small percentage of self-published books which are not garbage. DiapDealer clearly finds it amusing that some who take this view seek to justify it by excluding certain categories of self-published books. In the end it doesn't matter that greatly. Clearly even those who take the most extreme view acknowledge that there are self-published books worth reading.

Some posts say or sometimes imply, intentionally or otherwise, that it is a terribly onerous and time consuming task to find good Indie/Self-Published books. So much so that they prefer to stick to established traditional publishers. My personal experience is that finding good self-published books is neither terribly onerous nor terribly time-consuming. If your experience is different, I have no problem with it. Though I do believe you are missing out needlessly.

In replying to Mivo earlier I said I agreed with DiapDealer's #19, and therefore did not seek to repeat the points made in that post. But I find this paragraph particularly apt:



And this:

At one time, back in the day, before all the publishers consolidated into a few mega corporations, quite a few publishing houses had a specific selection criteria, a voice if you will, that meant that, if you liked that criteria, then you liked most of the books that publishing house put out. Baen publishing was the most recent example, though it's voice has changed quite a bit since Baen died. It's been a while since I bought every baen monthly ebook bundle.

Tor publishing has a fairly consistent voice as well. I suspect this voice is what people are talking about when they talk about using publishers as a filter. So someone who is a fan is thinking Tor publishing, not Holtzbrinck, the parent company. I think if you think of it in that manner, the idea of a filter makes more sense.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

At one time, back in the day, before all the publishers consolidated into a few mega corporations, quite a few publishing houses had a specific selection criteria, a voice if you will, that meant that, if you liked that criteria, then you liked most of the books that publishing house put out. Baen publishing was the most recent example, though it's voice has changed quite a bit since Baen died. It's been a while since I bought every baen monthly ebook bundle.

Tor publishing has a fairly consistent voice as well. I suspect this voice is what people are talking about when they talk about using publishers as a filter. So someone who is a fan is thinking Tor publishing, not Holtzbrinck, the parent company. I think if you think of it in that manner, the idea of a filter makes more sense.

Until the internet became household--and even only after ebooks had made their initial surge onto the scene--I couldn't have told you who published my favorite authors. It just never occurred to me. Publishing houses weren't relevant to me. They still aren't. I just finished a fairly popular backlist title by a fairly popular scifi author. Without going back and looking, I've no clue who published it.

Now maybe I'm the odd one out in that regard, but I doubt it. I've a feeling most readers (casual and avid alike) are unaware of any "voice" a particular publishing house might have. I would never assume I'm going to like something based on who published it. It wouldn't occur to me.

I know Tor publishes Science Fiction, but I wouldn't consider that a very helpful filter (assuming I even notice that a book is published by Tor). I don't like all science fiction, after all. I've tried to read a lot of tradpubbed, very competently edited scifi garbage.

Sorry, but I have to believe that readers who are publisher-sensitive (let alone publisher-centric) are a pretty niche group. Most are author- or genre-sensitive, and as a consequence, fairly publisher-agnostic/ignorant.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Until the internet became household--and even only after ebooks had made their initial surge onto the scene--I couldn't have told you who published my favorite authors. It just never occurred to me. Publishing houses weren't relevant to me. They still aren't. I just finished a fairly popular backlist title by a fairly popular scifi author. Without going back and looking, I've no clue who published it.

Now maybe I'm the odd one out in that regard, but I doubt it. I've a feeling most readers (casual and avid alike) are unaware of any "voice" a particular publishing house might have. I would never assume I'm going to like something based on who published it. It wouldn't occur to me.

I know Tor publishes Science Fiction, but I wouldn't consider that a very helpful filter (assuming I even notice that a book is published by Tor). I don't like all science fiction, after all. I've tried to read a lot of tradpubbed, very competently edited scifi garbage.

Sorry, but I have to believe that readers who are publisher-sensitive (let alone publisher-centric) are a pretty niche group. Most are author- or genre-sensitive, and as a consequence, fairly publisher-agnostic/ignorant.

Exactly. I know that certain books are published by Tor because of the free monthly offering, and certain other books are published by Baen because up until a few years ago, the ebook versions of those books were only available direct from Baen. Other than that, I usually don't know what company (if any) published the book I'm reading...nor do I care. In the days before the Internet, I would choose books based on browsing the book store/library, or (rarely) because of a recommendation from someone else. I belonged to the Science Fiction book club for a few years, and got some good books from there, but I have no idea who published them, and not every book from there was to my taste.

I truly think that most people are more like DiapDealer and I in this regard. They don't know, or care, who published the book. They just read it. They go by recommendations from friends, (or celebrities), or they have a favorite author or genre, and that's it.

Shari

[darryl]

I will add myself to that list. I also pay little attention to who is publishing a book. I was not aware of any publishing house having a particular voice and quite frankly cannot imagine myself liking most of the books put out by a particular publishing house.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by darryl

I will add myself to that list. I also pay little attention to who is publishing a book. I was not aware of any publishing house having a particular voice and quite frankly cannot imagine myself liking most of the books put out by a particular publishing house.

I seem to recall several here talking about the Baen monthly bundles, so I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person on this board who is at least aware of who Baen books is. I suspect that most long time SF/F fans in the US are aware of who John Campbell, Donald Wollheim and Ian and Betty Ballentine are and have quite a few books originally published by DAW, Ace and Ballentine books on their shelves. I know I do. Certainly, the publishing house wasn't what I looked at when I was looking for books in the bookstore, but the little emblem on the spine of the books did catch my eye.

Perhaps it's a genre thing, or that the original publisher is more important that the local publisher. But when I look over at my book shelves, I see a lot of books by the same publishers - Del Rey, Avon, Tor, Ace and Baen. It's likely not as important these days, especially for people who buy ebooks, but at one time, the publisher could be extremely influential.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

But when I look over at my book shelves, I see a lot of books by the same publishers - Del Rey, Avon, Tor, Ace and Baen. It's likely not as important these days, especially for people who buy ebooks, but at one time, the publisher could be extremely influential.

I just don't believe this to be true in general. It may have been for you. But someone noticing—after the fact—that many of the books on their shelves were published by the same houses does not suggest that the knowledge of said publishing house was influential, any in any way, with their decision to read said books.

I look at my shelves and notice that many of my books have covers whose colors primarily feature blues and greens. That certainly doesn't mean that the colors green and blue are extremely influential in my decision-making process. It means blues and greens were popular colors for covers when I was buying them.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I just don't believe this to be true in general. It may have been for you. But someone noticing—after the fact—that many of the books on their shelves were published by the same houses does not suggest that the knowledge of said publishing house was influential, any in any way, with their decision to read said books.

I look at my shelves and notice that many of my books have covers whose colors primarily feature blues and greens. That certainly doesn't mean that the colors green and blue are extremely influential in my decision-making process. It means blues and greens were popular colors for covers when I was buying them.

Yes, it's certainly possible that it's only true for me personally, though one again, the number of posters who talk about getting the Baen monthly bundles for years and years seems to indicate that it's not simply me personally. When I saw that I look at my book shelf and see a lot of specific publishing houses, it isn't an after the fact thing.

Do I primarily buy something because of the publishing house? No. Am I aware of what publishing houses publish my favorite authors? Yes. Am I more likely to take a chance on a new author because he or she is published by a publishing house that publishes my favorite authors? Absolutely.

Is it a genre thing? Most likely. At any given time since the 70's there have only been a few publishers at a time that publish a lot of SF&F. For example, Ballantine Books published the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series as well as the various Tolkien books, so I did indeed keep an eye out for Ballantine Books way back when I first started buying books because many of the Adult Fantasy books were by authors who I had not heard of before. I suspect I was not the only one since the whole purpose of the series was to introduce readers to older classics as well as new writers in that tradition. So yes, the publisher had a big influence on getting me to at least pick up a book and take a look at it. (note, from a historical point of view, the best SF&F selection in Atlanta back in the last 70's and early 80's was the Georgia Tech college bookstore, which really isn't all that surprising to anyone familiar with the GT student body at the time. )

[DiapDealer]

It may be a genre thing. But seeing as how I grew up reading SFF (Tolkien, Brooks, Donaldson, etc...), I can assure you that noticing the publisher is not a general trait of genre readers. It wasn't (isn't) for me by any means. I've never picked up a book in the store or in the library because of the publisher name/logo. That sort of thing just wasn't even on my radar when looking for books to read. I just went to the SF section. That was all the filtering I needed.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

It may be a genre thing. But seeing as how I grew up reading SFF (Tolkien, Brooks, Donaldson, etc...), I can assure you that noticing the publisher is not a general trait of genre readers. It wasn't (isn't) for me by any means. I've never picked up a book in the store or in the library because of the publisher name/logo. That sort of thing just wasn't even on my radar when looking for books to read. I just went to the SF section. That was all the filtering I needed.

Same here. And of course visiting a site like Bean is very much analogous to visiting the SF/Fantasy section of a bookstore. It does not mean that you like even the vast majority of what they publish. I suppose if you like 90% of the books a particular publisher publishes then it would make good sense to regularly check their new releases. But this would never have even occurred to me since publishers are usually just not on my radar. Even now I could not tell you who publishes most of the books I read.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

That sort of thing just wasn't even on my radar when looking for books to read. I just went to the SF section. That was all the filtering I needed.

That already got the offerings down to a manageable level. But when faced with a large and amorphous selection, publisher can be a handy if crude tool to make some cuts.

Originally Posted by darryl

Even now I could not tell you who publishes most of the books I read.

But that's different from saying that books of certain publishers tend to appeal more than others.

Back when OverDrive allowed you to search based on publisher, I found that an extremely useful means of finding something to read when I wasn't looking for anything in particular. And I have no interest in genre at all, so that wasn't the qualifier. I was very sorry when that was discontinued during one of the upgrades.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by issybird

That already got the offerings down to a manageable level. But when faced with a large and amorphous selection, publisher can be a handy if crude tool to make some cuts.

Possibly. But as I said, I just don't believe that to be very widespread behavior. I could be wrong, of course, but this:

Originally Posted by issybird

Back when OverDrive allowed you to search based on publisher, I found that an extremely useful means of finding something to read when I wasn't looking for anything in particular. And I have no interest in genre at all, so that wasn't the qualifier. I was very sorry when that was discontinued during one of the upgrades.

...leads me to believe that I'm probably not (the discontinuation).

I have no problem with people wanting to using a publishing house (or houses) as filters. I just don't believe it's very common (or all that useful) for readers to do so. In my world, discovery is about inclusion, not exclusion. Unless publishers were micro-focused on one very specific subject (nautical historical fiction; post-hegira political space thrillers; post-apoc western themed mystery, etc...) then filtering based on publisher wouldn't help me much. *shrug*

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

...when I look over at my book shelves, I see a lot of books by the same publishers - Del Rey, Avon, Tor, Ace and Baen. It's likely not as important these days, especially for people who buy ebooks, but at one time, the publisher could be extremely influential.

You see a lot of Del Rey, Avon, Tor and Ace because those were the publishers of science fiction. If you loved science fiction, but avoided Del Rey, that would be significant.

Having said that, I do agree with you on Baen. They have their own fans and have long been known as a niche publisher, within the already niche sci-fi genre.

I think Harlequin used to have this type of following as well. I do remember in the '80's seeing signs advising 'We stock Harlequin romance!'