What does the new Kindle and its price point mean ...

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by rblover

Why should it matter to me-who reads English-whether the Kindle can support Korean, Greek, etc? This sounds like Sony pushing the Betamax years ago, by claiming it had superior image, and sound...the trouble being that the image, and sound, superiority could not be detected by human eyes, and ears, and could only be demonstrated on hi tech lab equipment. If an e-readers alleged superiority is not useful to me, I have no need for it. If Kindle can't handle epub, what good is it?

And why are you in this forum, sir madam or whatever? Looking to tout Sony's "superior format support" on yet *another* thread?

Jeeze, it looks like the Sony Defense Force has discovered Mobileread.
We're doomed! Spam incoming!

[wallcraft]

If the new Kindle is to go retail in a major way, then Amazon must be making a significant profit at the current price points. Otherwise there is no room for retailers to make a profit, not to mention distribution costs. This does not mean that anyone except B&N and perhaps Sony can compete in price, because Amazon is selling millions of devices.

I don't see how PocketBook, or Jinke, can sell many 6" devices. I don't even see how they sell 5" devices, unless they can do so at ~$150. However, there is room for 8" and larger devices. These don't necessarily need WiFi or 3G, but they do need good software (which PocketBook and Jinke have a good start on, PocketBook is particularly strong for PDF which is a plus). EInk is advertising 7", 8" and 9.7" Pearl screens. I don't think 7" allows much retail premium above $200, and the Kindle DX at $379 suggests a large screen limit of $400 for a WiFi-less reader.

The 9" SiPix touch screen is a possibility, but they seem to have missed their best window to get a hold in the market. I think the 6" SiPix is dead, even with a touch screen. Pearl EInk screens has more contrast, and will own the $139-$200 price range for reading devices.

[Marcy]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Kobo will have to take their chances like everybody else.
Sony? Good riddance! I'm sick and tired of their fanboys/girls/whatever.

Why badmouth other readers?

My PB360 is my favorite reader, but I was quite happy with my Sony Readers. They were by far the sturdiest readers I've owned and Sony made the best lighted covers ever. I miss the lighted aspect with my PB360, because I can't find a light that will clip on to it, stay on it without falling over and not go over into the reading area.

And while the the library software sucked big time, the software on the reader was super. I still miss being able to have my books listed by author and a separate batch of folders listing them by series/tags. To accomplish the same thing with my PB360 I'd have to put each book with a tag or series on the device twice. Since I used calibre to manage my books, I never cared how much the Sony library software sucked.

So, call me a Sony fangirl. I still like the product and if I couldn't have a Pocketbook, that's probably the brand I'd go back to.

-Marcy

[Marcy]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

And why are you in this forum, sir madam or whatever? Looking to tout Sony's "superior format support" on yet *another* thread?

Jeeze, it looks like the Sony Defense Force has discovered Mobileread.
We're doomed! Spam incoming!

Dude, this guy is bashing Kindles and even took a dig at Sony, albeit another product line. You are a bit obsessed.

Addition: I just read your posts in the Kindle thread in the news forum. You are seriously obsessed. If there is such a thing as a Sony Fanboy you are the diametrically opposed, but just as obsessive Sony Unfanboy, putting your opinion into as many places. Sony readers have their pluses and minuses just like all other brands. Get over it. End addition.

And I agree with him, at least on the epub front. The K3 sounds really sweet until you get to that mobi-only BS. I have my entire library in epub and am not about to convert it all. Pretty much every other reader on the market supports epubs, so my choices are anything but a Kindle if I want to keep my current collection of almost 2000 ebooks as is.



-Marcy

[kacir]

Originally Posted by rblover

Why should it matter to me-who reads English-whether the Kindle can support Korean, Greek, etc?

Perhaps it doesn't matter to you, but this was one of features that distinguished PocketBook from Kindle. For many people that purchased PocketBook this was the reason to choose it. Perhaps not particularly Greek, or Korean, but definitely the etc. Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Hungarian. People in Japan have been reading (and even writing!) books on their mobile phones for ages.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Marcy

You are a bit obsessed.

Ma'am, if I offended anyone around here, I apologize.

I normally try to be polite and diplomatic but there is only so much willful misinformation and trolling a guy can take in a single day.
That particular newbie had been non-sequitouring the "exact same phrase" in multiple threads all over the forum.

As for Sony readers, I have no great with them. I have been known to recommend them in the "What should I buy" Forum and out here in the real world, when they are the appropriate to the task. If you tracked my posts yesterday you might have noticed that I forwarded Marilyn's $99 Sony PRS-300 find to a poster looking for a $99 eink reader. I'll let that be my verifiable defense on obsession. Cranky and contrarian I'll admit to, obsessive no.

I do have issues that I am not shy about voicing ( ) with Sony's corporate PR strategy of going negative on opposition products just as I did with Apple's "I am a PC" campaign. As I stated above, I believe products should compete on their merits, not by relying on product libel or brand loyalty.

I am normally a reasonable (albeit snarky) person but I do not tolerate willful foolishness and misinformation. Usually I believe in the Ian Fleming theory of internet surfing (Live and let die) but when I see concerted campaigns spreading FUD (esecially in a forum where they do not belong) I tend to react, diplomatically if possible, snarkily if aroused, nastily rarely. Even then, I prefer to let known facts rule. Nothing I posted yesterday is anything but verifiable.

Now I'd rather return to the subject of the thread; the tightening of the competitive landscape. See next.

[fjtorres]

I've been mulling the matter of what it will take for an ereader vendor to survive in the current North American market and I'm thinking there is a need to address *four* specific aspects.

1- Quality Hardware
2- A stable, recogizable, consistent, *hardware independent* software platform
3- A competitive flagship ebookstore
4- Mindshare and/or retail presence

The first one is a given; different folks might have different ideas of where quality ends but I think we can all agree it starts with solid, stable reliability and after purchase support.

Number two is a lot subtler and the key to Amazon's rise. (Oprah Winfrey aside.) And to Nook's meteoric rise from zero to solid second in barely six months. Amazon recognized that readers read on multiple readers. That consistency and familiarity across hardware is a compelling feature for a product line. That ebook readers are more a software app than they are hardware. That providing the same branded experience across hardware (even some not your own) extends your device's ecosystem. Amazon's strength isn't their hardware or even their ebookstore but rather the pervasive, *easy* access to their bookstore. Everything else, even the reader hardware and software functionality, is secondary to bookstore access. Hence their apps for smartphones, PCs, Macs, tablet, webpads, anything with a screen by the time they're done. B&N has embarked on a similar path, even licensing that ebookstore access to other device manufacturers (Ectaco, Pandigital). The software plaform is, in many ways, the real product. Just as on PCs where, more often than not, Windows is the product and the hardware just the packaging. More than anything else, platform thinking is going to be critical moving forward.

Third, if ebookstore access is important, obviously a flagship store is a must. As ebooks become mainstream products they are being purchased by people who are not familiar with the territory, who don't frequent online ebook sites and ponder how many ebooks can fit on a pinhead. (Guilty as charged. ) The worst question they could be left with is, "Where do I get books for this thing?" Amazon's answer is, of course, their own store. B&N and its licensees have a similar answer. Sony has their own store. But this is one area where the other vendors relying on Adobe ADEPT ebookstores at at risk. Being store agnostic means no quick answer. This may be problematic over the next year or so.

Fourth is the matter of mindshare. It's all about access to the potential customers outt there. For the first two-plus years, Amazon advertised Kindle nowhere. Then they pulled the coup of the ages by overnight turning an obscure hobyist gadget into the talk of Oprah Winfrey viewers all over the land. They went from near zero to nearly 100% brand awareness overnight. Since then they have added soft-sell image-building TV ads and are not moving into retail sales through B&M stores. B&M store sales means channel conflict and margin issues but it also means cold sales and impulse buys. And even greater mindshare.

Over the last month or so, since B&N announced the Nook WiFi, the industry has entered a new phase. In the US only at first, since B&N does not sell outside its home turf (yet), but as of this week the new regime has gone international with the Kindle WiFi. Upfront, the focus has been on price, which does make the prospect for competitors seem dimmer than it really is. The true change in the market is that competitors now need to focus; focus their product on very specific buyers, focus their message. (*This* is what we do, this is why *you* need us). There is little room for "fly-fishing marketting"; announcing a product, setting up a website, and waiting to see who bites. There's trawlers out there.

Pocketbook Global is (today, at least) probably in better shape than anybody not named Amazon or B&N. I have no insight into their economics, of course, but from the outside a few things are clear:

1- The hardware is generally solid and well-supported; they understand there is a future after the first sale.
2- They already have a platform strategy. It is limited to their branded hardware but they do have an established software platform to build on.
3- They are addressing the ebookstore issue in at least some markets. NorthAmerica still needs a flagship store. Store agnosticism isn't going to help much in this market, I fear.
4- Mindshare is their biggest hurdle, especially in NorthAm; retail presence the biggest challenge. There's still some 30 million potential buyers in the US alone but first they need to know Pocketbook exists. And need to see what is good about it. And where to get it. Most of those buyers are *not* going to spend weeks or months doing online research for ebook readers. Most are just going to walk past a display, wonder if they might not enjoy a reader gadget, maybe wait a while to mull it over and then make the rounds of the big box retailers; they will buy ebooks the way they buy other electronic gadgets. Online will be a part of it; a lot of consumers are used to online shopping by now. But online can be hit or miss. Especially with the specter of the "Big Names" floating out there.

Mindshare is going to be tough outside the "Big Three" brands. Especially without B&M presence. Even Amazon knows online is not enough. B&M partners are a must; shelf-space significant.

Looking at the competitive landscape, I think most of us round these parts can look at the four pillars and see which products can most solidly check off the most requirements.

Some might be surprised to see it is Nook and not Amazon that is best positioned today; Amazon isn't just playing catch-up on price, they are playing catch-up on B&M presence. They have mindshare, they have installed base, but a lot of people need to see things in their hands before buying. Even if they end up buying online.

Conversely, the worst-positioned and most vulnerable are the OEM "badge engineers" like Cool-er. (Now gone.) Some lack even a unified software platform, simply buying different models from different OEMs. Not looking good there.

And Adobe is, literally, no help.
The ADEPT ecosystem lacks presence on tablets, webpads, smartphones. There is no cross-device synchronization which, while not indispensable (yet), is a hallmark of the big name ebookstores. Adobe makes money off the reader apps so they are not about to "compete" with their partners by putting out a free ADE for Android or Blackberry, much less iPhone/iPad/iTouch. But that means there are ceding iPad owners to Apple, Amazon, and Nook.
The delay in getting the promised B&N eReader DRM compatibility out to customers of other ADEPT licessees isn't helping the ADEPT ecosystem either. It is, instead, heling prop Nook up as *they* can read ADEPT ebooks from all sources while theirs are only readable on Nook (and their licensed partners--think about it, B&N is licensing access to their bookstore. Isn't Adobe supposed to be doing that?).
Factor in Apple's DRM-fork of the ePub community and the ePub standard is starting to look like *three* standards with ADEPT lagging the other two DRM camps. Which *not* good. Amazon doesn't need extra help. And right now, folks that prefer multi-function devices for ebook reading (and they are many--just ask Apple) can get *free* Kindle apps on overything this side of WindowsCE. Nook almost as many. And ADEPT? Zilch. (The Txtr app for iPhone is about it and I heard it had issues on iPad.)

As I said in my post above, Adobe needs to step up for their licensees. And fast, as time is of the essence. The single biggest ebook reader market is still in play. There is room for competition, to slice off major chunks of the market with premium features, better support, focused marketting. But NorthAm won't be in play forever.

iPad is out and killing everything north of $399.
Android webpads are not great yet but good ones will show up sooner or later as will good Windows tablets (early next year most likely).
Sooner or later, the premium device market will get hemmed in into nichedom.
At that point, only the biggest will survive.

The meaning of the new price point isn't necessarily that vendors need to get cheap *now*, but rather they need to get *big* now so they can go cheap later.

The future of eink devices is small and cheap. Small is easy; cheap isn't.
The future of eink device vendors is big or none at all.
The clock is ticking.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by kacir

A spartan sports car without a radio, carpets, back seat and air conditioner. The one that comes with a big red box, the size of small shipping container, with 100 titanium spanners, 50 screwdrivers, special tools and 10 sets of shock absorbers of various parameters.

;-)

I already bought one of them (it was called Renault 4 --4 latas, 4 tin in Spanish-- I think I'm done )

[Terisa de morgan]

I want to talk from two different sets of people who usually don't appear a lot here:

• Spanish People: Yes, there're some of us but here, but not a lot (obvious English reason ). You compare Kobo, Kindle, B&N and PB. I'm goint to compare you: Kindle (150€), Hanlin V6 (240-250€), Hanlin V5 (190-230€), Sony PRS-300 (190€+), Opus (185€+), Gen3 (240€+) and PB360 (230€+) Sorry, folks, no competition here, I'm afraid, unless you don't want to buy by Internet (so, you're limited to Sony, Hanlin and other like that, all of them 200€+) It's very difficult to justify the higher prices from a non expert point of view (mainstrem means that)
• Technical impaired people: More features? More customizable? More applications? Sorry, my device is for reading. I need ONE format to read well, a nice presentation for my library, an easy way to transfer my books and STABILITY in my device. Nothing more, nothing less. In general, people don't care about wonderful features for adding new applications (reading, do you remember?), standard fights (ePub? Mobi? What's that? Where can I buy? Where can I get? Can I read at my reader and my Palm?) or wonderful opensource developments (to change FW? FW, WTF? It works, doesn't it? )

Remember that, there's a lot of life outside the forums, I've read about a lot of people who have chosen an ereader, have decided the best format for their reader and they have disappeared. They don't know (and don't care) if there's a FW update, a hack, a softroot, a new model or something like that.

If I can get something at 150€ and I can get my books at the same price or less, it's sold.

[Marcy]

Originally Posted by kacir

A spartan sports car without a radio, carpets, back seat and air conditioner. The one that comes with a big red box, the size of small shipping container, with 100 titanium spanners, 50 screwdrivers, special tools and 10 sets of shock absorbers of various parameters.

;-)

I think the PB360 is more like a tiny, but very expensive sports car. It does more than the other brands. It is a mechanic's car though—you got that right!

Air conditioning is not a luxury, but a necessity, at least in these parts. It's been about 110 (43C) here every day for the past few weeks.

I think of the PB as coming with A/C, as well as carpets and back seat. And you can easily change the carpets and the color/shape of the back seat too! Most of the other "cars" on the market give you no choice—you have to accept the carpet color and the back seat they give you.

-Marcy

[Mickey330]

I've read through all this thread ... and all the ones talking about the new Kindle. And, I have to admit, the new K3 sounds pretty tempting! Especially now that Amazon has moved from its "You can have any color you want, so long at it's white" stance, the device has become almost attractive (I say almost because I still like bare-bones readers - and that keyboard is still just, well, there).

Speaking from a USA-centric standpoint - 'cause that's where I live and all I can really see/speak about - I think Amazon's Kindle is going to kick some serious e-reader butt, at least here in the USA.

In this "instant gratification" world, a $139 (US) reader that can access a bookstore with 10s of 1000s of books, access other web sites to get/download free books, all from the comfort of your couch, on a train, on a bus, etc. ... I can see the attraction. Heck, I have a great e-reader and I am seriously tempted!

It's because of advertising. Amazon has done a masterful job at getting brand recognition in front of the masses. The first e-reader I heard about was the Kindle, right from its inception. Of course, I already used Amazon as one of my online retailers of choice, but still - where were Sony's advertisements? The only thing that stopped me from buying a Kindle was the sure and certain knowledge that I'd spend a fortune on e-books, which was something I was trying to cut back on.

My first e-reader was the Sony PRS-600 and it was an impulse buy. Impulse because it was in the store at Borders when I was there. I was already prepped for an e-reader after hearing about the Kindle. So, I bought the Sony. Then I did my research and found out about DRM, MobileRead, ePub, accessing the public library, etc.

And that’s my point (you were hoping I’d get there, yeah?). It’s advertising, marketing and presence! For the non-Kindle (and probably, maybe, the non-Nook) e-readers, they’ve got to get into the public’s mind. And that, in my opinion, is a physical presence.

I have a Pocketbook 360° and I love it to bits. But, when I’m out in public, the first question I am usually asked is “That’s neat! Is that a Kindle?” Sigh. I blame Pocketbook Global for this. In my opinion, if they are going to seriously compete with the instant gratification of Kindle (and cheap gratification at that!) here in the USA, they are going to have to move the Pocketbook line off the Internet and into a store. Heck, get the thing into Wal-Mart (with good displays - Sony’s aren’t that great). Yeah, roll your eyes at the mention of Wal-Mart - but there is a heck of a market there.

Finally, I like fjtorres’ [off-the cuff, semi-serious] remark - maybe Pocketbook should look into ways of working with Amazon to get whispernet/Topaz/azw format authorized for the Pocketbook line of readers. If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em! Plus, I don’t think Amazon will mind losing some market share in e-readers. Mainly because I firmly believe Amazon’s main goal is to be THE e-book merchant. If they can put a Kindle app on almost every other device out there - why not the Pocketbook line?

IMHO, it comes down to presence for all the non-Kindle makers. I don’t want to see the domination of Amazon’s Kindle to the exclusion of all others. I like choice, both in e-readers and format (and notice I’ve not gotten into DRM - that’s a whole ‘nother topic!). I like the simplicity of the PB360 and I don’t want to see it disappear. When I need a new e-reader, I sure hope Pocketbook is there. But, IMNSHO, the other e-reader companies are going to have to chase Amazon via brick and mortar stores. And, they’d better hurry before Amazon gets there...

Marilyn

[mcrmama]

I tend to agree with Marilyn that they have to get into brick and mortar stores with a nice display. When I was researching the last couple of weeks, I went into Walmart and there sat the Kobo and the Sony pocket edition side by side. I was very tempted to buy one of those on the spot since it is here, and I can see them. I actually turned to go ask for one when I realized it was time to pick up my son and I wouldn't have time. I then came home to think more about it and do one last research. I decided to go with pocketbook. I wouldn't have considered pocketbook at all or known of its existence if it wasn't for a comment on one of the what should I buy threads here. I found a video of it and was amazed. Once I realized I could get it from a Canadian site, it was added to the list from which I was choosing. It really is important to get out there and be seen.

I do think pocketbook can find a niche as it is different than the others trying to copy the kindle. It has features that those readers do not have that will draw a market, but they have to get the product out there and be known. When I am on another forum like a parenting one, people only know the kindle or the nook pretty much. If there is a group of Canadians, they will bring up the kobo since they have seen it in stores. Although kobo is having some growing pains with firmware etc. at the moment, I think its presence here will help it make it in the long run. Pocketbook needs to do that as well. It doesn't necessarily have to be a Walmart if they want to place themselves as a higher end reader so perhaps a known electronics store or the like would work, but the product needs to get out there.

Jodi

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Mickey330

Heck, get the thing into Wal-Mart (with good displays - Sony’s aren’t that great). Yeah, roll your eyes at the mention of Wal-Mart - but there is a heck of a market there.

No rolling of eyes here.
If there is *one* retailer that would go out of their way to stick a shiv in Amazon's back it is Wal-Mart. There's been bad blood there for years and years. (A Lawsuit, too.) They'd *love* to carry a major competitor to Kindle. And to Nook. Let's not forget; Wal-Mart sells print books by the ton. Mostly as traffic generators but they'd be loathe to lose that draw.

If you look at their website you'll find a fairly broad assortment of readers online so they are aware of the need to carry something. They are naturals for the ADEPT camp to enlist if only because the big three are already selling ebooks and are competitors of their book business.

So Pocketnook Global? Howzabout it? The 901 would be a great product to lead a charge into Wal-Mart's 8500 stores. The only 10in-class eink reader at retail? People would stop and take notice. Did I mention: one deal, 8500 outlets? And if WalMart goes out and buys one of the ADEPT-based indie retailers at risk because of the Price-Fix scheme, well; there's a flagship ebookstore. You *can* be store agnostic *and* have a flagship partner, especially for something like the 903 or a Wifi 901. Or a 302/602.

There's other large retailer chains already sniffing around the ebook reader business: Sears sells Ectaco, Penney's been selling Pandigital, KMart Augen. Ectacos are pretty nice (I've recommended a few to some of my cousins), the Pandigital is more interesting as a webpad, the Augens are just plain raw, software-wise. Good ideas but not ready for primetime, the latter two. If those newcomers can get into major chains, why isn't Pocketbook out there somewhere?

For that matter, why not get clever and go for the Office Supply chains? OfficeMax, Staples, Office Depot. The 302/602 would be a great fit if you push the note-taking feature. Opportunities abound.

ebooks are becoming mainstream products in NorthAmerica yet there is a big vacuum at retail. *Somebody* is going to fill that shelf-space...

Somebody is going to have the presence of mind to get the retail presence needed to prosper.

[asjogren]

Maybe the next wave is something very different?

A PB360 "like" device and a 901 "like" device tied to Overdrive.com public libraries?

Or, my hope, those same devices tied to a NetFlix "like" eBook rental service.

If I want to buy eBooks, the Kindle is good enough and tied to a very good bookstore. I don't buy many.

I have been tempted by the PB360 for some time. Would I buy the PB360 if it switched to Amazon? No. However, I would buy the PB360 TODAY, if similar to a different vendor, I could easily switch the firmware from Amazon mode to Pocketbook mode back-and-forth. (the licensing would likely preclude co-residency) Support all non encrypted formats in either "mode", just switch between Amazon/Mobi and Adobe ADEPT by firmware update.

[Graham]

After digesting all this for the last couple of days, I think the answer for me at least to "What does the new Kindle and its price point mean..." is this:

The price is low enough for me, up until now a firm supporter of ePub devices, to seriously consider buying a Kindle as a second machine, simply to open up Amazon to me as an effort-free source of book purchases.

Which puts me in a dilemma. By buying a Kindle I indirectly support lock-in to Amazon's DRM, so I'd probably be putting ePub under further threat.

So do I make a stand and stick with needing to strip the DRM if I ever have to buy from Amazon (a vendor who I certainly trust and admire outside the eBook department), or do I reckon the battle's already lost and go with ease of use?

On balance, at the moment I think it's best to hold back for a few months and see what happens on the ePub side, but Amazon are dangling a pretty tempting carrot there...

Graham