Forma Why some notes are popup notes, some are jumping notes in Kobo Forma

codychan · 04-07-2021, 12:49 PM

I have been frustrated by the notes style in Kobo device for a long time, I prefer popup notes but a lot of notes in my books when I read on Kobo device are jumping notes. All the notes in Calibre ebook viewer are popup notes which are the style I prefer.

Recently I start to read a book that a lot of notes in it, but I notice that some notes are popup notes and some of them are jumping notes.

I use Calibre Ebook Editor to compare the code of the two notes in the original epub file, they are the same format, and I compare the two notes in the kepub.epub file in my kobo forma(All ebooks in my Kobo are .kepub.epub format), there are the same too.

I don't know if this is the bug of Kobo.

Here is the original epub file and the .kepub.epub file in my kobo

Please help!

For example, the 1 and 2 notes are jumping notes, and the 3 and 4 notes are the popup notes.

Note 2 and Note 3 are the same in kepub.epub :

Code:

<a class="c7 pginternal" role="doc-noteref" epub:type="noteref" href="@tmp@colour_annotated-38.htm.html#jpnote1" id="jpref1"><span class="koboSpan" id="kobo.93.1">2</span></a></sup>

<a class="c8 pginternal" role="doc-noteref" epub:type="noteref" href="@tmp@colour_annotated-38.htm.html#jpnote2" id="jpref2"><span class="koboSpan" id="kobo.95.1">3</span></a></sup>

The following attachments are just examples, I got other books that have this issue too.

DNSB · 04-07-2021, 03:00 PM

I had a quick look at the files. They are epub2 according to the internal information so the epub:type and role="footnote" items are not valid. Add in that as far as I recall, a popup footnote is restricted to 5000 characters or less (*). Given that quite a few of your footnotes are in files over that length, they won't popup. An example is the 6986 characters for the Proteus footnote linked to the chapter 3 header.

Otherwise, the structure of the epub stinks. See the example below:

Quote:

Code:

<body class="x-ebookmaker"><div role="doc-footnote" epub:type="footnote" id="jpnote932"><div role="doc-footnote" epub:type="footnote" id="jpnote986"><div role="doc-footnote" epub:type="footnote" id="jpnote990"><div role="doc-footnote" epub:type="footnote" id="jpnote995"><div role="doc-footnote" epub:type="footnote" id="jpnote999"><div role="doc-footnote" epub:type="footnote" id="jpnote1024"><div role="doc-footnote" epub:type="footnote" id="jpnoteiot-530"><div role="doc-footnote" epub:type="footnote" id="jpnoteiot-567"><span class="c13"><em>Saint Vitus' dance</em></span>

Add in Gutenberg's usual habits of splitting chapters between files and stuffing multiple chapters into a single file, both of which sins are committed in this abomination, using undeclared classes, an example being the x-ebookmaker used for body, a class which is never declared in either the stylesheets or inline.

I would suggest that some practice with either Sigil or Calibre's editor and plugins such as epubcheck would allow you to clean up this <expletive deleted> mess.

* See Footnotes/Endnotes Are Fully Supported Across Kobo Platforms for more information.

codychan · 04-07-2021, 05:02 PM

Thanks for your info, the attachments are really bad examples.

I got another book, the content is Chinese though:
epub3, no role, no epub:type for the footnote, footnotes contents are very short.
The first four footnotes in the book:

Code:

# the footnote code:

<a id="w1"></a>
 <a href="part0014.html#m1">
<sup>[1]</sup>
</a>

<a id="w2"></a>
 <a href="part0014.html#m2">
<sup>[2]</sup>
</a>

<a id="w3"></a>
 <a href="part0014.html#m3">
<sup>[3]</sup>
</a>

<a id="w4"></a>
 <a href="part0014.html#m4">
<sup>[4]</sup>
</a>


# The footnote content:

<p class="note"><a id="m1"></a>
 <a href="part0014.html#w1">[1]</a>
 拉丁文：“我登上天主的圣坛。”这是天主教神父主持弥撒开场用语。</p>
 
<p class="note"><a id="m2"></a>
 <a href="part0014.html#w2">[2]</a>
 耶稣会是天主教内以治学严谨闻名的修士会。根据乔伊斯另一小说《艺术家青年时期写照》（即《青年艺术家的画像》，以下简称《写照》），斯蒂汾自幼在耶稣会办的学校上学。</p>
 
<p class="note"><a id="m3"></a>
 <a href="part0014.html#w3">[3]</a>
 耶稣临终前在最后晚餐席上给他的十二门徒分面包传酒时曾说，这就是他的身体和血液；天主教圣餐仪式中均重复此语以示圣餐所用的面饼与酒即圣体的一部分。马利根将基督名称Christ加词尾变成一个女人名字似的词christine，可能与本书第十五章描写的亵渎基督的“黑弥撒”（以裸女为祭坛）有联系。</p>

<p class="note"><a id="m4"></a>
 <a href="part0014.html#w4">[4]</a>
 代达勒斯由希腊姓氏“代达罗斯”略作变动而成，古希腊传说中的代达罗斯是最著名的巧匠，曾制造双翼粘在身上飞出囚宫。</p>
<p class="note"><a id="m5"></a>

Note 1 and note 2 are popup notes, but note 3 and note 4 are jumping notes.

DNSB · 04-07-2021, 06:33 PM

If you are using epub3, you are expected to use the appropriate elements to identify the footnotes otherwise the heuristics kick in. Take at look at this page discussing the aside for instance.

You can also try a search on MobileRead. Using Google, epub footnotes site:mobileread.com comes up with quite a few hits.

codychan · 04-07-2021, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNSB

If you are using epub3, you are expected to use the appropriate elements to identify the footnotes otherwise the heuristics kick in. Take at look at this page discussing the aside for instance.

You can also try a search on MobileRead. Using Google, epub footnotes site:mobileread.com comes up with quite a few hits.

I just don't understand why the multiple footnotes of the same format behavior differently on Kobo Forma.

Thanks for the link, I already started to read the whole epub2 and epub3 specs once for all, since I got issues like multi-fonts font, footnotes, page break and other styles from time to time.

DNSB · 04-08-2021, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codychan

I just don't understand why the multiple footnotes of the same format behavior differently on Kobo Forma.

Part of it is that if the footnotes/endnotes are not properly specified, the heuristics are not that great. If the number of characters between the start of the footnote and the end of the file the footnote is in, exceeds 5000 characters, it will be treated as you would expect a link in a HTML ToC to be treated. A good reason why using the correct syntax and keeping an eye on file sizes is important.

And this is just on a Kobo ereader. Similar issues exist on every ereader I've tried.

codychan · 04-08-2021, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNSB

Part of it is that if the footnotes/endnotes are not properly specified, the heuristics are not that great. If the number of characters between the start of the footnote and the end of the file the footnote is in, exceeds 5000 characters, it will be treated as you would expect a link in a HTML ToC to be treated. A good reason why using the correct syntax and keeping an eye on file sizes is important.

And this is just on a Kobo ereader. Similar issues exist on every ereader I've tried.

I read all the epub2 spec and all the result of "epub footnotes site:mobileread.com", follow the rules in some demo epub file in the links which is popup note on my Kobo, shrink the long footnote content and move the position of the footnote close to the reference node, pass the epubcheck check, they are still not popup.

BUT I managed to make the notes popup in other 2 books (I only tried 3 files including the Ulysses file, but it is chaos, I keep it untouched).

The solution is: split the html files
- add "page-break-before: always;" in stylesheet, for header tag or for just the footnote content part which lists all the footnote content.
- convert the epub file, the html will be split into multiple html files
- send the converted file to kobo

but the html files are not big, one is 60kb and the other is 100kb, don't know why it is a problem for kobo. Anyway, maybe it doesn't work for all cases, I'll use this method in the future and see how it goes.

And thanks for the help, learnt a lot.

bluesorella · 04-15-2021, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codychan

The solution is: split the html files
- add "page-break-before: always;" in stylesheet, for header tag or for just the footnote content part which lists all the footnote content.
- convert the epub file, the html will be split into multiple html files
- send the converted file to kobo

but the html files are not big, one is 60kb and the other is 100kb, don't know why it is a problem for kobo. Anyway, maybe it doesn't work for all cases, I'll use this method in the future and see how it goes.

And thanks for the help, learnt a lot.

Yess! That is the solution. Searched three days and tried everything. This works perfectly.
Thank you very much!

Barruel · 11-21-2022, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codychan

The solution is: split the html files
- add "page-break-before: always;" in stylesheet, for header tag or for just the footnote content part which lists all the footnote content.
- convert the epub file, the html will be split into multiple html files
- send the converted file to kobo

Sorry for resurrecting the thread, but this was the most fitting thread I've found in MR.

I've converted a pdf I own into an epub (v2, then to device as kepub with the extended driver) so I can read it in my Clara, which is BTW still at firmware 4.26. After lots of Word and Sigil, I ended up with a nice book which has had only one issue: footnotes. This is a rather technical book and has lots of them, some of which are very long.

After lots of googling and trial and error, the procedure I quoted above works and almost every note is now shown as a popup in the reader.

There are, however, some notes that keep being handled as a regular links, so after tapping them I end up in the html document containing the note. Every note is, of course, called through the same code and has the same format, but I found that those notes not being displayed as a popup after using the aforementioned procedure are the few ones which, because of their lenght, must be displayed in more one page (one screen, actually).

I tried trimming the text on one of them just to make it fit in one "page" and it was indeed showing as a popup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNSB

If the number of characters between the start of the footnote and the end of the file the footnote is in, exceeds 5000 characters, it will be treated as you would expect a link in a HTML ToC to be treated.

This might be a hardcoded limitation for popups, but it looks like the display-as-regular-html behavior is triggered even before hitting that limit when the device detects that the text can't be shown in a single screen.

Maybe this behavior has been improved in recent firmware versions. Is there any known workaround? Does this happen also with epub3 books, which AFAIK have proper support for notes?

Colonel Cathcart · 11-22-2022, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barruel

Maybe this behavior has been improved in recent firmware versions. Is there any known workaround? Does this happen also with epub3 books, which AFAIK have proper support for notes?

Maybe you'll find the answer here:
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=349478

Quoth · 11-22-2022, 02:12 PM

There is no solution. Footnotes are a problem and generally if you can get popup to work, it's only for short single paragraphs that can fit in the box, so likely user increasing font size breaks them.

One solution is that notes should follow each chapter and be repeated if more than one source uses a note and make note be link back as most ereaders have no back button.

Barruel · 11-22-2022, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colonel Cathcart

Maybe you'll find the answer here:
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=349478

Thanks.

So, in a nutshell notes in Kobos are a bit like a lottery.

Just to try epub3, I converted my book to epub3 and placed perfectly orthodox "<a epub:type="noteref" href="doc.html#whatever>" and "<aside epub:type="footnote">" bits and footnotes didn't behave better than epub2 notes until I've split every footnote into a single html. They keep being unstyled and don't get displayed if more than a single screen is required to show them.

The thing is that I prefer popup notes because they show up much faster than they do when jumping to the actual document they are in. Probably it is down to the fact that they are plain unformatted text. Or just because they are in another separate document.

I'm going to try to place them at the end of the document they are called from and, if I can, make them all jumpnotes. They will be properly styled and hopefully load faster as well because they are in the same file. I seem to have read somewhere about a way to have them hidden from regular view. I'll post about my findings

04-07-2021, 06:33 PM	#4
DNSB Bibliophagist Posts: 35,453 Karma: 145525534 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Vancouver Device: Kobo Sage, Forma, Clara HD, Lenovo M8 FHD, Paperwhite 4, Tolino epos	If you are using epub3, you are expected to use the appropriate elements to identify the footnotes otherwise the heuristics kick in. Take at look at this page discussing the aside for instance. You can also try a search on MobileRead. Using Google, epub footnotes site:mobileread.com comes up with quite a few hits. Last edited by DNSB; 04-07-2021 at 06:38 PM.

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11-22-2022, 02:12 PM	#11
Quoth the rook, bossing Never. Posts: 11,161 Karma: 85874891 Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Ireland Device: All 4 Kinds: epub eink, Kindle, android eink, NxtPaper11	There is no solution. Footnotes are a problem and generally if you can get popup to work, it's only for short single paragraphs that can fit in the box, so likely user increasing font size breaks them. One solution is that notes should follow each chapter and be repeated if more than one source uses a note and make note be link back as most ereaders have no back button.