Question about copyright?

snookums · 02-13-2008, 04:53 PM

Cornell has a lot of historical documents online such as the Constitution of the Confederate States. They also have the first couple issues of Scribner's Magazine as scanned images available online. I'd like to put these into e-format to sell, but they state on their webpage that these materials are made available only for non-commercial purposes. How can they do that? As far as I understand copyright, anything before 1923 is in the public domain. Do they really have any legal standing to say that I can't use the copies of Scribner's or any of the other historical documents in a commercial manner. I could buy copies off of eBay and scan them myself. It would be harder to find a source for the treaties and documents, but I could. So how could they tell the difference, and how could anyone claim copyright on treaties and documents of the U.S. unless they were translated or added to in some way.

Nate the great · 02-13-2008, 05:43 PM

I don't think they are claiming copyright; they can't. Depending on how it is phrased, they might have some kind of license agreement. I don't know until I see it. Can you provide a link?

MaggieScratch · 02-13-2008, 05:46 PM

They are PDFs, right? They own the copyright of the PDFs of those publications, because they made the PDFs. Just like a Penguin edition of a public domain novel is copyrighted for that edition. Microfilm/microfiche works the same way. Same with images of old paintings in museums--the painting itself is in the public domain, but the copyright of photographs of the paintings belongs to the photographer.

So you can go ahead and make copies of the same magazines that you bought off eBay and sell them, yes. YOU would own copyright of THOSE editions.

snookums · 02-13-2008, 05:56 PM

I was actually thinking of two different places. Yale's Avalon Project collects historical documents like The Confederate Constitution. The first 19 volumes of Scribner's is over at Cornell. Either way, I don't see how they can claim any say over what I can do with the text. I'm sure the images that Cornell has are their own, but the text should be in the public domain.

Nate the great · 02-13-2008, 06:11 PM

The scanned images of Scribner's are probably in copyright. The contents of the scanned images are not.

The text at the Avalon Project is not in copyright. So long as you are careful to remove their notes and introductions, you're fine.

P.S. Thanks for pointing out the Avalon Project. I didn't know about it.

snookums · 02-13-2008, 06:35 PM

Thanks. That's what I thought, but I wanted a second opinion. The Avalon project even lists the source book that they got the Confederate Constitution from. It's in the public domain. I just wanted to be certain that I wasn't getting myself in trouble.

RWood · 02-13-2008, 09:19 PM

When I was assembling the Harvard Classics series I found many sites with some of the materials that were not available at Project Gutenberg. Many of them were copyright in their presentation even though the base material was long out of copyright.

For some of the pieces I used PDF images from the Internet Archive and processed those through an OCR program. After cleaning up the resultant files they were incorporated into the final volumes.

My view on the issue, go for it.

HarryT · 02-14-2008, 02:55 AM

I have to confess that I am a little uneasy about the idea of using public domain documents for commercial gain. Why not create an e-book and share it with everyone freely, as many of us have done for you?

ericshliao · 02-14-2008, 06:02 AM

The main stream of global copyright protects both content and compilation. Even when the content too old that is beyond protection, its compilation may still within protection.
That is, one can't just take other's compilation without agreement, enen when the content in that compilation is not within protection. Unless one makes some effort to extract content from the compilation and make his own compilation.
So, if one can extract content from pre-scanned image to text or pdf, the commercial limitation will not be applied.

snookums · 02-14-2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I have to confess that I am a little uneasy about the idea of using public domain documents for commercial gain. Why not create an e-book and share it with everyone freely, as many of us have done for you?

Probably both. But for those who don't come to places like mobileread, I'll probably upload a copy to the kindle service as well.

HarryT · 02-14-2008, 12:00 PM

Thank you - that's good to hear.

VillageReader · 02-14-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I have to confess that I am a little uneasy about the idea of using public domain documents for commercial gain. Why not create an e-book and share it with everyone freely, as many of us have done for you?

Many of the books here or Gutenberg or Feedbooks (and Manybooks and...) are also available, sometimes with better formating, for a price at Fictionwise and other places. Sometimes people are just willing to pay for ease of use when they could get the same thing, or something very similar, at no charge.

No particular reason to be uneasy about it, IMO.

HarryT · 02-14-2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VillageReader

Many of the books here or Gutenberg or Feedbooks (and Manybooks and...) are also available, sometimes with better formating, for a price at Fictionwise and other places. Sometimes people are just willing to pay for ease of use when they could get the same thing, or something very similar, at no charge.

I entirely agree that, if significant work is done is tidying up formatting, or putting together a compilation of difficult-to-find material, then that can certainly be worth paying for. What I have "issues" with are the people who just reproduce PG material, completely "unimproved", and charge for that. I know there's nothing illegal about it, but to profit from something that you've been given free of charge is, I feel, a little questionable morally. It's just a personal opinion - I know that others will probably disagree, and I've no problem with that.

snookums · 02-14-2008, 02:45 PM

HarryT: I agree with you about people who are making money off of others effort. I personally think that it is a little bit weasely to just toss something off of gutenberg onto the Kindle service. There are already a dozen different versions of a lot of the classics there. I'm sure the first guy was doing everyone a favor, but all the copycats who aren't adding anything are getting on my nerves. What I've been considering is buying old magazines off of ebay and scanning and OCRing each edition, maybe even keep some of the illustrations. I see this as preserving history. Did you know that Cosmo used to be a literary magazine before it became the tacky mag that it is today?

I'd also like to make some public documents like the ones at Avalon Project more easily available to the public. That book that they cite as the source for the Confederate Constitution looks like it would be a treasure tomb. It's in the public domain and both volumes are available on Amazon for $60. I could start there. I'll definitely bring everything public domain here so you guys can imbibe, but I don't see the harm in making a few bucks by putting the stuff on some online stores as well. As VillageReader says, lots of people will pay for convenience, and they probably wouldn't know where to look otherwise.

02-13-2008, 04:53 PM	#1
snookums Connoisseur Posts: 81 Karma: 100 Join Date: Jan 2008 Device: Kindle	Question about copyright? Cornell has a lot of historical documents online such as the Constitution of the Confederate States. They also have the first couple issues of Scribner's Magazine as scanned images available online. I'd like to put these into e-format to sell, but they state on their webpage that these materials are made available only for non-commercial purposes. How can they do that? As far as I understand copyright, anything before 1923 is in the public domain. Do they really have any legal standing to say that I can't use the copies of Scribner's or any of the other historical documents in a commercial manner. I could buy copies off of eBay and scan them myself. It would be harder to find a source for the treaties and documents, but I could. So how could they tell the difference, and how could anyone claim copyright on treaties and documents of the U.S. unless they were translated or added to in some way.

02-13-2008, 05:46 PM	#3
MaggieScratch Has got to the black veil Posts: 542 Karma: 2144168 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Device: Kobo Aura One, Kindle Paperwhite 2	They are PDFs, right? They own the copyright of the PDFs of those publications, because they made the PDFs. Just like a Penguin edition of a public domain novel is copyrighted for that edition. Microfilm/microfiche works the same way. Same with images of old paintings in museums--the painting itself is in the public domain, but the copyright of photographs of the paintings belongs to the photographer. So you can go ahead and make copies of the same magazines that you bought off eBay and sell them, yes. YOU would own copyright of THOSE editions. Last edited by MaggieScratch; 02-13-2008 at 05:50 PM.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
A copyright question	ficbot	News	14	11-20-2009 07:48 AM
Interesting copyright question	ficbot	News	77	10-04-2009 06:29 AM
Copyright question	Seabound	Upload Help	9	01-23-2009 02:33 AM
Copyright Acknowledgement Question	Patricia	Upload Help	8	10-03-2008 05:20 PM
CopyRight Question	=X=	Upload Help	45	05-01-2008 12:47 PM

02-13-2008, 05:43 PM	#2
Nate the great Sir Penguin of Edinburgh Posts: 12,375 Karma: 23555235 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: DC Metro area Device: Shake a stick plus 1	I don't think they are claiming copyright; they can't. Depending on how it is phrased, they might have some kind of license agreement. I don't know until I see it. Can you provide a link?

02-13-2008, 05:56 PM	#4
snookums Connoisseur Posts: 81 Karma: 100 Join Date: Jan 2008 Device: Kindle	I was actually thinking of two different places. Yale's Avalon Project collects historical documents like The Confederate Constitution. The first 19 volumes of Scribner's is over at Cornell. Either way, I don't see how they can claim any say over what I can do with the text. I'm sure the images that Cornell has are their own, but the text should be in the public domain.

02-13-2008, 06:11 PM	#5
Nate the great Sir Penguin of Edinburgh Posts: 12,375 Karma: 23555235 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: DC Metro area Device: Shake a stick plus 1	The scanned images of Scribner's are probably in copyright. The contents of the scanned images are not. The text at the Avalon Project is not in copyright. So long as you are careful to remove their notes and introductions, you're fine. P.S. Thanks for pointing out the Avalon Project. I didn't know about it.

02-13-2008, 06:35 PM	#6
snookums Connoisseur Posts: 81 Karma: 100 Join Date: Jan 2008 Device: Kindle	Thanks. That's what I thought, but I wanted a second opinion. The Avalon project even lists the source book that they got the Confederate Constitution from. It's in the public domain. I just wanted to be certain that I wasn't getting myself in trouble.

02-13-2008, 09:19 PM	#7
RWood Technogeezer Posts: 7,233 Karma: 1601464 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Virginia, USA Device: Sony PRS-500	When I was assembling the Harvard Classics series I found many sites with some of the materials that were not available at Project Gutenberg. Many of them were copyright in their presentation even though the base material was long out of copyright. For some of the pieces I used PDF images from the Internet Archive and processed those through an OCR program. After cleaning up the resultant files they were incorporated into the final volumes. My view on the issue, go for it.

02-14-2008, 02:55 AM	#8
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	I have to confess that I am a little uneasy about the idea of using public domain documents for commercial gain. Why not create an e-book and share it with everyone freely, as many of us have done for you?

02-14-2008, 06:02 AM	#9
ericshliao Guru Posts: 976 Karma: 687 Join Date: Nov 2007 Device: Dell X51v; iLiad v2	The main stream of global copyright protects both content and compilation. Even when the content too old that is beyond protection, its compilation may still within protection. That is, one can't just take other's compilation without agreement, enen when the content in that compilation is not within protection. Unless one makes some effort to extract content from the compilation and make his own compilation. So, if one can extract content from pre-scanned image to text or pdf, the commercial limitation will not be applied.

02-14-2008, 12:00 PM	#11
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Thank you - that's good to hear.

02-14-2008, 02:45 PM	#14
snookums Connoisseur Posts: 81 Karma: 100 Join Date: Jan 2008 Device: Kindle	HarryT: I agree with you about people who are making money off of others effort. I personally think that it is a little bit weasely to just toss something off of gutenberg onto the Kindle service. There are already a dozen different versions of a lot of the classics there. I'm sure the first guy was doing everyone a favor, but all the copycats who aren't adding anything are getting on my nerves. What I've been considering is buying old magazines off of ebay and scanning and OCRing each edition, maybe even keep some of the illustrations. I see this as preserving history. Did you know that Cosmo used to be a literary magazine before it became the tacky mag that it is today? I'd also like to make some public documents like the ones at Avalon Project more easily available to the public. That book that they cite as the source for the Confederate Constitution looks like it would be a treasure tomb. It's in the public domain and both volumes are available on Amazon for $60. I could start there. I'll definitely bring everything public domain here so you guys can imbibe, but I don't see the harm in making a few bucks by putting the stuff on some online stores as well. As VillageReader says, lots of people will pay for convenience, and they probably wouldn't know where to look otherwise.

Advert

Advert