Epub3 Foot- End-notes

[lumpynose]

Hmm, I do like that suggestion for [Note 1] instead. Less obtrusive than [Footnote 1]. Thanks!

[Vroni]

I'm using [=> 1] to have a bigger tap area and to indicate that the reader will leave his current positiion in the book.

[Vroni]

Originally Posted by KevinH

Hi Toxaris,

You mean for fixed layout, pre-paginated ebooks, right? I am not sure how this could be handled in a reflowable without knowing the size of the page (so to speak).

KevinH

But the rendered does know the size of the page. IIf there is noit enoughj room for an image the image is displayed on the next "page". So the renderer does know that there is mor space left.

Its not a simple task to do it and changing font size may result in a longer rerendering phase, buit i wouldnt say its impossible.

[KevinH]

You re replying to a comment made in 2016. I had to re-read the entire thread to see what if anything you were referring to.

All I can say is Sigil is for editing epubs, and is not an epub reading system. So how footnotes are created from an editing perspective is what we focus on and not how a particular reader decides to implement that (ala iBooks or not).

I believe DiapDealer expressed similar thoughts in his answers, so I think we are on the same page.

What brought this topic back up?

[Vroni]

Oops, the thread has been digging out of the past here:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=27

So i started to read back a little bit and didnt noticed that it was so old.
Sorry

[jackie_w]

Originally Posted by lumpynose

Criticisms, thoughts?

FWIW this is a 'thought' not a 'criticism' regarding the following line of your code:

      <li id="ref1">Hannibal, Missouri. (<a href="#backref1">Return to previous place.</a>)</li>

Before you put a lot of effort into coding them this way I'd be inclined to double-check whether splitting the id="..." and href="..." attributes across 2 different tags messes up some devices' ability to display footnotes as pop-ups. A simple first test would be to see whether the calibre Viewer pops them up properly.

[lumpynose]

Originally Posted by jackie_w

FWIW this is a 'thought' not a 'criticism' regarding the following line of your code:

      <li id="ref1">Hannibal, Missouri. (<a href="#backref1">Return to previous place.</a>)</li>

Before you put a lot of effort into coding them this way I'd be inclined to double-check whether splitting the id="..." and href="..." attributes across 2 different tags messes up some devices' ability to display footnotes as pop-ups. A simple first test would be to see whether the calibre Viewer pops them up properly.

These are plain links, to another place (the end) in the current file. Pop ups seemed more fragile so I decided to go with end notes. The [Note 1] jumps to the end note, then that end note has a (Return to previous place.) to go back.

[lumpynose]

Originally Posted by KevinH

You re replying to a comment made in 2016. I had to re-read the entire thread to see what if anything you were referring to.

All I can say is Sigil is for editing epubs, and is not an epub reading system. So how footnotes are created from an editing perspective is what we focus on and not how a particular reader decides to implement that (ala iBooks or not).

I believe DiapDealer expressed similar thoughts in his answers, so I think we are on the same page.

What brought this topic back up?

I referenced roger64's comment "On touch screens, foot/endnotes are not that much reliable, even with bigger anchors" and I was soliciting feedback about using a simple method of linking, not using a smaller size superscript.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by KevinH

You re replying to a comment made in 2016. I had to re-read the entire thread to see what if anything you were referring to.

[...]

What brought this topic back up?

Exactly...

Originally Posted by jackie_w

Before you put a lot of effort into coding them this way I'd be inclined to double-check whether splitting the id="..." and href="..." attributes across 2 different tags messes up some devices' ability to display footnotes as pop-ups. A simple first test would be to see whether the calibre Viewer pops them up properly.

Exactly. Doing it that convoluted way will probably break the footnote heuristics in many of these readers.

Originally Posted by lumpynose

In my next batch of books, the first with footnotes, I've decided to use end notes and put them at the end of the chapter / xhtml file. In the body of the text I'm using

<a id="backref1" href="#ref1">[Footnote 1]</a>

[...]

Again, an easy to tap link for returning. Perhaps crude and inelegant but it's easy to tap.

Criticisms, thoughts?

Big mistake on nearly all fronts.

1. "[Footnote 1]" is unnecessarily long. It would make heavily annotated text nearly unreadable, and would also break across lines.

To make it easier to click, you already unsuperscript it + add a little buffer with brackets: [1]. That's enough to help readability without being too intrusive, and still helping fat fingers.

2. Relying on <ol> for auto-numbering is also bad, and it can't be relied upon across readers, especially when generating complicated numbering schemes ("d.1") or multiple sets of footnotes (Numbered + Greek + Symbols).

Heck, many of the ereaders have bugs starting <ol> with a number higher than 1!

Originally Posted by lumpynose

Pop ups seemed more fragile so I decided to go with end notes. The [Note 1] jumps to the end note, then that end note has a (Return to previous place.) to go back.

If you just KISS, the built-in popup functionality of readers will work. There's no need to try to recreate the wheel with some complicated convoluted code.

Either use the EPUB3 footnotes specified in Doitsu's Post #4... or use normal, simple EPUB2 code.

I won't go into further detail on Footnotes, I've written extensively on all the pros/cons and concepts behind all different types.

Here's just two of the topics:

See my discussion on Footnotes in "A link to jump back to the original start point?" (especially Posts #8+).

For a much larger overview of all kinds of book digitization problems that may crop up, see my posts in "Delicate text digitalizing + scanning issues".

For even more info: See this link.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by jackie_w

FWIW this is a 'thought' not a 'criticism' regarding the following line of your code:

      <li id="ref1">Hannibal, Missouri. (<a href="#backref1">Return to previous place.</a>)</li>

Before you put a lot of effort into coding them this way I'd be inclined to double-check whether splitting the id="..." and href="..." attributes across 2 different tags messes up some devices' ability to display footnotes as pop-ups. A simple first test would be to see whether the calibre Viewer pops them up properly.

Can you give an example of footnote code that would create a popup on a Kobo using kepub? Thanks.

[jackie_w]

Originally Posted by lumpynose

These are plain links, to another place (the end) in the current file. Pop ups seemed more fragile so I decided to go with end notes. The [Note 1] jumps to the end note, then that end note has a (Return to previous place.) to go back.

I can only speak from my Kobo experience but the "plain there-and-back-again links using <a> tags" that you posted can often be perfectly adequate for displaying notes as pop-ups in kepubs. No other special HTML/CSS is required if you code your <a> tags correctly.

Anyway, it's up to you how you proceed. I just thought I'd mention it.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by jackie_w

I can only speak from my Kobo experience but the "plain there-and-back-again links using <a> tags" that you posted can often be perfectly adequate for displaying notes as pop-ups in kepubs. No other special HTML/CSS is required if you code your <a> tags correctly.

Anyway, it's up to you how you proceed. I just thought I'd mention it.

Thanks. Next time I have a footnote heavy eBook, I'll give it a go.

[lumpynose]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Can you give an example of footnote code that would create a popup on a Kobo using kepub? Thanks.

If I remember correctly I think you just put it in an aside tag. The html I'm using I got from the Daisy page.

Edit: here's the link: http://kb.daisy.org/publishing/docs/html/notes.html

They don't have an id for the end note example so I put it on the li tag (because I didn't understand that they weren't linking to the end note).

[lumpynose]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Can you give an example of footnote code that would create a popup on a Kobo using kepub? Thanks.

I'll have to test this on the kobo, but what partially works with Calibre's vewer is this.

I'm using the reset css from https://github.com/FriendsOfEpub and in it is:

[hidden] {
  display: none;
}

My footnote is still the clunky one that's not superscripted. It's using the same stuff from the daisy.org page:

<a href="#ref1" role="doc-noteref" epub:type="noteref">[Note 1]</a>

Following that paragraph is the aside:

<aside hidden="hidden" id="ref1" role="doc-footnote" epub:type="footnote">
  <p>See page 450.</p>
</aside>

The part I don't understand is how to hide the aside. If I take out the hidden attribute then it's displayed after the paragraph. With the hidden attribute included the popup is empty.

[JSWolf]

When I'm cleaning up footnotes, I use [1] [2] [3] etc. I really dislike superscripted links. I want a link large enough to be seen.