Marvin page numbering and images

[eschwartz]

Well, make a poll and you might find out.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by mattcurtis

What sucks is that you can't have both

I disagree, Matt. You definitely can and should have both as user options.

Much as I'm dismayed by the fully arbitrary "page" schemes (ADE, Marvin, whatever...), the root of my dismay is when these are enforced as the only available page-count option. That is the trouble here. Marvin is enforcing its own, (in my opinion:) quite needlessly introduced new arbitrary scheme, while Hyphen is enforcing ADE. (I'm talking about "pages in book", of course.)

Apple, in their turn, is enforcing the natural page-count (screen-flips) as the only option in iBooks, which happens to be my preference, but enforcing any single option is just not a good way of treating your users. Naturally, anyone foolhardy enough to use Apple software must be used to such contemptuous treatment from Apple software, in that Apple just hates providing freedom of choice to their customers (unless they really, really must provide it here and there), and typically, you just need to meekly accept whatever you're force-fed by Apple software.

That's why I believe Marvin and Hyphen should be very different in their approach to their paying users. Don't be like Apple, please – don't give us a single option, expecting it to satisfy everyone. As this thread clearly demonstrates (and you've just summarized it yourself, Matt), a single page-count option will never satisfy everyone. Apple's approach to this dilemma is arrogance: they simply ignore the demands of the minority (as a multi-billion corporation, they can afford to be arrogant towards the software demands of minorities), and they just go with whatever the bulk of the masses of users demands, because that's where the big buck is. (Other software corporations like Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Adobe, or Facebook are no better, really – arrogance is in the DNA of software mega-corporations.) And for the masses, mediocre software will do perfectly. Please let's not Marvin and Hyphen settle for mediocrity and an Apple-like, dismissive, arrogant approach to diversified user demands and expectations. Apple is happy to settle, ignobly, for the lowest common denominator every time; but Marvin and Hyphen should aim higher.

I believe both Marvin and Hyphen should give us alternative page-count options, too: among them, what I call the "natural" or "common-sense" option: screen flip = page turn. If you and Kris do that, I will no longer be incensed by Marvin's scheme or ADE – I'll be free to ignore them, or even use them along with what I call the "natural" page-count (iBooks-style).

Yup, along with it. For example, now that Marvin allows us to customize page footers, I wouldn't mind in the least if I saw both the natural page-count in the footer, and ADE's page-count at the same time. Why not? What I find unbearable and unacceptable is if ADE's page-count (or Marvin's scheme) is the only option.

(Hyphen displays the same internal conflict, in terms of page-counts, as Marvin does – you are, Matt, simply masking that internal contradiction better through Hyphen's user interface, whereas Marvin's user interface, being fully transparent and customizable, makes that internal contradiction and inconsistency glaringly, in-your-face obvious. The contradiction and inconsistency consists in both Marvin and Hyphen using natural page-counts = screen-flips for "pages in chapter", but artificial, abstract, arbitrary pseudo-page-counts for "pages in book".)

Originally Posted by mattcurtis

I replied to you over here on Hyphen's thread, Faterson, so as not to derail Marvin's.

Right. I'll be posting my Hyphen-specific reply there.

[JKenP]

Sorry but anybody meriting this award will have to fill it in on their own.

[eschwartz]

^^ That is awesome.

[mattcurtis]

Originally Posted by Faterson

I disagree, Matt. You definitely can and should have both as user options. ...

I meant both in the same page numbering system, but I know what you're saying and I agree.

Originally Posted by JKenP

Sorry but anybody meriting this award will have to fill it in on their own.

What horse?

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

^^ That is awesome.

No, it's trite and embarrassing for the author. But then again, what would one realistically expect from MobileRead forums? It's a trolls' playground.

An unresolved issue, by definition, cannot be "beating a dead horse". The horse is very much alive, and I hope Kris will provide a solution for this issue in a future Marvin update.

[eschwartz]

No, the horse is dead. You can tell because the actual Marvin developer has been ignoring the thread and the topic has since devolved into a trollfest.

On a slightly more analytical note, you can tell it is dead because regardless of what anyone will do about it, everything worth saying has long since been said and now we are on the "loudly repeat everything" stage. (Although at this point we may have devolved entirely to the meta-speak About The Thread stage, in which case, all the more so.)

...

The issue has in fact been resolved, against your satisfaction. @kguil ignored you.

[Faterson]

I forgot I needed to apologize to you, eschwartz – I confused you with someone else a while ago, calling you "a fair debater". I'm sorry – it wasn't you, obviously.

If this thread is a "trollfest", then thanks to contributions such as yours. Are you here to demean fellow MobileRead users who do their best to provide input on improving Marvin, or is it your aim to improve Marvin?

Calling unresolved concerns posted by fellow Marvin users "beating a dead horse" is the definition of trolling; and so is surmising that Marvin's developer is ignoring these concerns. You've just heard (well, maybe not) another software developer, Matt (the developer of Hyphen e-reader), saying that reading this thread has been instructive for him. I'm sure the same can be said of Kris, the Marvin developer. And this thread would be a 1000% more useful if trolls stayed away from it. If you have nothing constructive to contribute to this particular thread, just don't read it, OK? You have bashed me again and again and again in this thread and others – what good does it do if you bash me another 10 times? We get it, you despise me. Fine, I can live with that. Now move along, please – there are hundreds of other MobileRead threads where you can voice your fury and attack some other folks for a change. No one is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to follow this particular thread, let alone contribute to it. If it truly is "beating a dead horse", why would you waste your precious time following such a useless thread? Please move along to someplace else, and you may find peace. Thanks a lot in advance.

(Of course, this is par for the course for MobileRead – 10% useful discussion, and 90% deflecting trolls and personal attacks. That is why I really hope Kris will soon "officially re-open" GitHub, so that we can continue providing input on improving Marvin there, in a serious manner. As can be seen, no serious discussion can really be held here in MobileRead forums for any extended stretch of time, because it very rapidly devolves into a verbal slugfest, every time.)

[ShellShock]

Faterson, have you noticed that Kris hardly ever replies to your posts, even in threads where he is responding to everyone else? Have you ever wondered why this might be the case? Rather than blaming others, have you ever considered the problem might be much closer to home?

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by ShellShock

Faterson, have you noticed that Kris hardly ever replies to your posts [...]?

Nope, because I believe that is merely a (false) impression of yours. I'm fine with Kris not replying to each of my posts – I'm not that vain to expect a reaction to every burp I make online. I also know that Kris doesn't reply to many of my posts because they are not new to him – many of the complaints about Marvin I have were first voiced years ago. The reason I keep reiterating those concerns (but never wantonly – always in reaction to other posters' contributions, or after a new discovery/insight of my own, pertinent to the issue at hand) is logical: the concerns are still unresolved after all these years. The only way to find out if there are other Marvin users with similar concerns, is to voice those concerns, right? Then other Marvin users might chime in, saying "yes, that's a good feature request" – which might eventually sway Kris so as to oblige the request. So, if you wish to put it that way, I'm lobbying on behalf of my feature requests – and nothing could be more legitimate, in my opinion. If you examine the current thread, for example, you'll see I'm simply reacting to other posters' contributions – I'm not talking to myself here; no posting for posting's sake. If this thread/concern indeed is a "dead horse" as some claim (though I'm certain it's not – far from it; the Hyphen developer correctly remarked that page-count issues are among the most complex in developing e-book software; those issues won't go away if you simply dismiss them by calling them a "dead horse") – well, but if it were a dead horse, then all that needs to be done is for other posters to stop contributing to this thread, and the thread would likely die away of its own. (Without the issue being resolved, though, so that the issue would likely resurface again in future in some other place.)

Originally Posted by ShellShock

Rather than blaming others

I'm not "blaming" anyone, but I do believe that MobileRead forums are not a suitable venue for seriously discussing the development of e-reader software, for responding to bug reports and feature requests. For those serious things, there is GitHub, with its strict organization of "1 thread per reported issue". That organization is absolutely crucial. Over in Marvin's GitHub (currently defunct, unfortunately), you can see quite clearly who is contributing there with the sincere desire to improve this e-reader software. It's not surprising (in fact, it's very amusing) that some of the worst, notorious MobileRead trolls are strong opponents of using GitHub. Why, you might ask? Because their mode of personally attacking fellow contributors, instead of discussing the matter at hand (the Marvin software), would be plain for everyone to see, over at GitHub, a professional environment with the strict "1 thread per issue" organization.

But over here, in the chaotic whirlwind of MobileRead forums? Oh, it's so easy to attack fellow contributors here – you can just follow the posters you dislike from one thread to another, bashing them over the head over and over and over again. No one will object to such behavior here (in fact, you will find lots of fans cheering you on, to continue bashing fellow posters that your fans dislike, too). The distinction between contributing to the development of the software at hand, and attacking fellow users of that software, is conveniently blurred here in MobileRead forums.

For all these reasons, I do hope Kris will soon "reopen GitHub for business", so to say. I'm not saying MobileRead forums are totally useless – they're very nice to have as a place to chat with people of similar "(e-)bookish" interests, and some posts (such as that of the esteemed Tex) can be incredibly helpful. Overall, though, MobileRead is not a serious working tool for a software developer. It's a very nice complementary tool to have at one's disposal in addition to a professional tool like GitHub (a similar, professional and efficient tool is the getsatisfaction.com site), but MobileRead is no replacement for such a professional tool.